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Old 05-13-2019, 01:04 PM   #141
Erick Estrada
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What's with the Frolik debate in a Bennett thread? One player is getting a new contract and the other likely shipped out for good reason.
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Old 05-13-2019, 01:07 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by transplant99 View Post
Old man rant time:

Hockey is played on frozen water....not spread sheets.

Who played against tougher opposition?

Who was better on Tuesdays and who was better on Saturdays?

Who was better when Bill Peters was getting smoked with errant pucks wearing a blue suit?

I mean its ALL spin when you are breaking down to these types of minutiae.

You call it prudent research, i do not.

This is only my opinion of course, but the stuff i see trying to explain or excuse things in a game that is relatively straight forward to see what is occurring is becoming mind numbing to me.

Even the whole "he is an above average 3rd liner" you trotted out...like really? So he is closer to a #7 than a #8? Does that truly matter at all?

Some players are good at X others at Y and others at both. Some at none. Who plays where and with whom will always be part of the equation for sure, but with 4 years of history, that argument doesn't fly either. Bennett has had MULTIPLE turns with the best players on this club and failed repeatedly.

When it comes to the player this subject is about, i see more excuses, (and have for years now), about how he is this and that or will be this and that....and it simply has not manifested itself to anything close. The thing is, it hasnt even had the appearance of happening, yet here we are still seeing the same old song and dance being trotted out for him because he found his game for 10 days in April. He was great for 2 weeks so now we ignore the last 4 seasons?

Frolik is/has been a much better player than Sam Bennett. You can disagree if you like, but in reality there is no way that can be substantiated. Could that change based on their ages? Of course and i really hope it does. Im just not seeing it nor counting on it based on the last 4 seasons however. I hope he is not paid for that expectation either...really is all im saying.

Go ahead and scold me now, but nothing presented here with "research" is going to change what Sam Bennett is thus far in his Flame career.

I've been wrong before though and hopefully will be around to be wrong again.
Excuses? Trotting out?

Don't think that's fair at all.

All I've said in this entire conversation is that you don't walk away from him, he's not a fourth rounder, but that the Flames should look to upgrade forward number six above both Frolik and Bennett.

You brought up Frolik being the much more productive forward, and I and others countered that with more detail.

If you didn't want to talk about something, maybe don't start it.

I haven't made Bennett out to be more than he is. I haven't argued for giving him more money or even more opportunity.

Old man rant is right ... I feel like the kid standing near your front lawn minding his own business (realistically I'm an old man too)
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:15 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by transplant99 View Post
Old man rant time:

Hockey is played on frozen water....not spread sheets.
I guess that invalidates all your pointing to point totals which is the core tenet of every post you make. After all, this is a verbatim copypaste of what you said within the last week:

"He had 27 friggin points. 294 other players outpointed him. 224 of them were forwards."

Quote:
Who played against tougher opposition?
Who verified that tougher opposition was a more difficult context than weaker linemates?

Quote:
Who was better on Tuesdays and who was better on Saturdays?
Who was better when Bill Peters was getting smoked with errant pucks wearing a blue suit?
Who cares? These are not causal relationships. Linemates and Empty ****ing nets are. It blows my mind that this does not register for you.

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I mean its ALL spin when you are breaking down to these types of minutiae.
No, it's all spin when you are breaking it down to these types of claims (made by you in the last week):

a) "Cause [Bennett's] coach doesn't trust him enough to put him out in [empty net] situation, because he isnt good enough defensively."

b) "He just doesnt have the hockey IQ for that kind of role...he has never shown it either. "

c) "Bennett has shown to find his game for small stretches and then disappear again for weeks."

d) "He will be 23 at the start of next season...dont think we are going to see leaps and bounds of growth from him at this point"

e) "Frolik out produced Bennett with the same amount of ice time and way less PP time. Period."

f) "he is an average at best 3rd liner."

g) "Bennett has had MULTIPLE turns with the best players on this club and failed repeatedly."

THIS is spin. Because it is

a) is speculation BY YOU
b) is YOUR OPINION
c) is anecdotal and not sieved from the hundreds of other NHLers, many in far more favourable situations who are hardly bastions of consistency,
d) is YOUR OPINION
e) a claim that is accurate ONLY at face value because it OMITS key details that are CRUCIAL to making anything RESEMBLING a fair assessment.
f) just... objectively incorrect in every way other than YOUR OPINION
g) based on miniscule samples that were not NECESSARILY EVEN FAILURES but you continue to add YOUR OPINION to the point where it is just rote presentation rather than real information

You wanna accuse me of spin, simply for identifying correcting your boatload of absolute B.S., be my guest.

Quote:
Even the whole "he is an above average 3rd liner" you trotted out...like really? So he is closer to a #7 than a #8? Does that truly matter at all?
Well last I checked an average #8 is not a "AT-BEST AVERAGE" third liner, so that would still be a fair rebuttal for your B.S. claim.

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Bennett has had MULTIPLE turns with the best players on this club and failed repeatedly.
Which turns were these? You mean that time Gaudreau and Bennett were chained to a trio of Alex Chiasson, Deryk Engelland, and Jyrki Jokipakka? Or was it that time Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett were a pretty good line despite your (and this has been rebutted in the past, I know because I statistically did it) claims to the contrary? Or do you mean those handful of shifts with Monahan and Gaudreau, often even leading to goals for, but they were failures because he wasn't one of the final three people to touch the puck? Oh, but surely it can't include the playoffs, because the playoffs are an invalid source of performance because they were a small sample size, despite being bigger than most of these stints together with the so-called "best players on this club".

Your definition of failure is hilarious and well in-line with your general rotating assessment of the player. All you've done to this point is argue vehemently that kiwis are apples and all apples are oranges and you don't want to hear minutiae about apples not being oranges.
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Old 05-13-2019, 05:54 PM   #144
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Have you not watched him play the past 4 years? He prob leads the league in offensive zone penalties and has negligible offensive finish.
I've watched him play the last four years.

I agree he does take more offensive zone penalties than the average player. I disagree this is an indicator of "low IQ", though. He plays an aggressive style that toes the line, one which players don't get away with in the regular season, yet do get away with in the playoffs. This is not unique to him across the NHL, although it may be unique to him on the Calgary Flames, where there may be an allergy to playoff style hockey among the key ice time logging forwards.

I agree he has so-called "negligible" offensive finish. I disagree that this has any correlation to "IQ" as this is essentially a physical trait. Both Bennett's even strength expected goals and actual goal rates are actually identical to Mikael Backlund over the last five seasons, the difference being about thirteen hundred minutes of ice time, which is expected comparing a 25-29 year old to a 18 to 22 year old. Does Backlund lack IQ as well?

There are many areas where Bennett's IQ is positively apparent and it's disappointing you are unable to see those areas.
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Old 05-13-2019, 06:18 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
I guess that invalidates all your pointing to point totals which is the core tenet of every post you make. After all, this is a verbatim copypaste of what you said within the last week:

"He had 27 friggin points. 294 other players outpointed him. 224 of them were forwards."



Who verified that tougher opposition was a more difficult context than weaker linemates?



Who cares? These are not causal relationships. Linemates and Empty ****ing nets are. It blows my mind that this does not register for you.



No, it's all spin when you are breaking it down to these types of claims (made by you in the last week):

a) "Cause [Bennett's] coach doesn't trust him enough to put him out in [empty net] situation, because he isnt good enough defensively."

b) "He just doesnt have the hockey IQ for that kind of role...he has never shown it either. "

c) "Bennett has shown to find his game for small stretches and then disappear again for weeks."

d) "He will be 23 at the start of next season...dont think we are going to see leaps and bounds of growth from him at this point"

e) "Frolik out produced Bennett with the same amount of ice time and way less PP time. Period."

f) "he is an average at best 3rd liner."

g) "Bennett has had MULTIPLE turns with the best players on this club and failed repeatedly."

THIS is spin. Because it is

a) is speculation BY YOU
b) is YOUR OPINION
c) is anecdotal and not sieved from the hundreds of other NHLers, many in far more favourable situations who are hardly bastions of consistency,
d) is YOUR OPINION
e) a claim that is accurate ONLY at face value because it OMITS key details that are CRUCIAL to making anything RESEMBLING a fair assessment.
f) just... objectively incorrect in every way other than YOUR OPINION
g) based on miniscule samples that were not NECESSARILY EVEN FAILURES but you continue to add YOUR OPINION to the point where it is just rote presentation rather than real information

You wanna accuse me of spin, simply for identifying correcting your boatload of absolute B.S., be my guest.



Well last I checked an average #8 is not a "AT-BEST AVERAGE" third liner, so that would still be a fair rebuttal for your B.S. claim.

That's some Springs1 level type of posting right there.


The fact remains Bennett's offensive game has stagnated. That's not OPINION, but fact.



The fact remains that more than one coach now has failed to put him in a top 6 role. We can speculate to the reasons but if they thought he was good enough, he would likely have been there. People used to say Gulutzan was a bad coach, but BIll Peters is a coach of the year candidate and still doesn't see fit to make Bennett his guy.


The fact remains that in a year may Flames enjoyed career years, Bennett did not.



The fact is that this point in his career, based on stats, usage, and coaching, he is a third line player at best, and while there is a chance that he could still explode, that chance lessens each year.


Pretty much everything you've said is an opinion until Bennett actually goes out and explodes.



The level of antagonism for a long-time poster who doesn't share an opinion is staggering.
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Old 05-13-2019, 08:32 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by GranteedEV View Post
I've watched him play the last four years.

I agree he has so-called "negligible" offensive finish. I disagree that this has any correlation to "IQ" .

There are many areas where Bennett's IQ is positively apparent and it's disappointing you are unable to see those areas.
What does Sam’s “negligible “ offensive correlate to, if not “IQ”? Lack of talent? I think it’s more than that.

He struggles to find and employ open shooting space or find the open man. His frequent 1v 1 forays or puck protection efforts more than often end up in turnovers.

He struggles in PP situations.

How do you explain these regular problems?

Please define the areas where Sam’s IQ is “ positively apparent”.

Is he an ultra competitive player? Most certainly.
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Old 05-13-2019, 11:09 PM   #147
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actually...nm.
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Old 05-14-2019, 10:38 AM   #148
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I'm gonna jump in here on the hockey IQ thing. I do think it is apparent he does not have the strongest hockey IQ. Maybe a better way to say it is "hockey sense". So many times he'll go for the low percentage move (Toe-drag at the blueline vs pass to open teammate). When it works it look awesome and shows his skill, but too often it leads to a turnover and the puck heading the other way.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:24 AM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbit View Post
What does Sam’s “negligible “ offensive correlate to, if not “IQ”? Lack of talent? I think it’s more than that.

He struggles to find and employ open shooting space or find the open man. His frequent 1v 1 forays or puck protection efforts more than often end up in turnovers.

He struggles in PP situations.

How do you explain these regular problems?

Please define the areas where Sam’s IQ is “ positively apparent”.

Is he an ultra competitive player? Most certainly.
I'm not going to profess to know what the issue is ... but he gets scoring chances.

He was 2nd to Backlund in individual scoring chance rates per 60, and ranked 1st for all forwards in high danger chances per 60.

I'm not sure you get those if you don't have a hockey IQ or hockey sense.

Not sure if eye test for me had him 2nd and 1st, but I certainly see chances and then a variety of reasons they don't go in.
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:59 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by timbit View Post
What does Sam’s “negligible “ offensive correlate to, if not “IQ”? Lack of talent? I think it’s more than that.

He struggles to find and employ open shooting space or find the open man.
Him not being an elite shooter and lacking the confidence to thread the needle with his passing. These aren't IQ issues.

Quote:
His frequent 1v 1 forays or puck protection efforts more than often end up in turnovers.
Oh, please. Plenty of young players make 1 v 1 forays. Nathan MacKinnon was the posterchild for these just a couple of years ago when his team was dead ****ing last in the NHL. You don't try to squeeze that out of the player, and if you do you are the one with the low IQ.

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He struggles in PP situations.
Yet he had the most PP points on our roster this past season among anyone who wasn't on the first unit. Hmm.

Quote:
How do you explain these regular problems?
They're not problems at all, even if they're areas for improvement.

Quote:
Please define the areas where Sam’s IQ is “ positively apparent”.

Executing precise breakout plays in the defensive zone in traffic (he's the best forward on the team at that)
Reading defensive passing lanes.
Covering the neutral zone with his positioning
Covering the front of the net defensively (as a center)
Helping his defensemen behind the net defensively (as a center moreso)
Effectiveness on zone entries (contrary to popular belief, no, he doesn't just go for a toe drag every time. People just dislike toe drags so much it clouds their perception)
Some of the more deceptive playmaking on our roster when he does have some confidence.
Creates a lot of chances with short passes

There is a lot of reason to see that what he brings to his line and team are positive beyond being "competitive" and "physical". The "Bennett has Low IQ" crowd is incredulous with how fixated on minor things like toe drags (which aren't even the negative they are made out to be) and miss the forest for the trees with the player.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:31 PM   #151
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Nope.

He's an above average third line NHL hockey player.

No point in bringing fourth line into the discussion because it's hyperbole that's equal to calling him a second liner.

Forward #93 had 52 points this year ... Bennett isn't a first line player.

Forward #186 had 33 points this year, Bennett in an 82 game season was on pace for 31 this year. He's not a second liner, but he's close to the worst one in hockey.

Forward #279 had 21 points this year, the cut off for the best fourth liner. Bennett is well ahead.
I have to agree that he's turned himself into a pretty good hockey player for this team over the last 12 months. He hits, works his butt off and creates time and space for his team with his style of play (which is sorely needed). I would have no problem in seeing him extended long term at a low hit as I think at worst he brings a ton to the roster physically and effort wise. If he can expand his game further into the PK side of things and offer a mild uptick offensively, it would be worth it for sure vs any potential replacement we'd have to overpay for as a UFA or via trade.

For me, the real argument for Bennett long term is:
Can he continue to avoid the brutal penalties that plagued him again next season? - PIM continue to rise, the bad ones seem to be falling though.

Can he expand his game to become a useful PKer or at least a reliable defender? - No SHTOI at all and limited DZ useage is a red flag for a quality 3rd liner for me.

Can he find a way to improve his offensive output? - Ranks #225 and #228 out of #279 forwards in terms of shots and points respectively which is actually bang on the mark for a middling third liner in that regard.

Given the above, I just don't think advocating him as an above average third liner really means anything. We all know from watching him for this long that he's downright terrible offensively and that isn't going to change if he's playing in the top 6 or bottom 6. I'd still take what he brings to the team long term given the AAV is nice and low. If he does improve his game in the above areas, the Flames potentially have themselves a bargain bin in the Calle Jarnkrok neighborhood.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:37 PM   #152
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Can he expand his game to become a useful PKer or at least a reliable defender? - No SHTOI at all and limited DZ useage is a red flag for a quality 3rd liner for me.
Funny, Bennett was one of our best PKers just two seasons ago, and since then all he's done is improve on faceoffs and see his PK time dwindle. This was a Flamesnation article written in 2017:

https://flamesnation.ca/2017/01/04/s...-penalty-kill/

as was this:

https://flamesnation.ca/2017/08/01/w...-penalty-kill/

And our PK that year was better than it was this year.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:44 PM   #153
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Without getting into a bunch of advanced stuff. The things that I like and why I want him to be re-signed is because in the playoffs he has that other gear. In the regular season, sure his numbers leave you wanting more, but in the last couple series (Ducks sweep and Aves) he has been an effective player. 9 games played and has 7 points. He sets a physical tone, which is something you really need. He knocked Girard out of the series and was a pain in the ass to play against.
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Old 05-14-2019, 12:58 PM   #154
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Bennett was supposed to be the future franchise player the Flames needed to compliment Gaudreau and Monahan. After the 2015 playoffs I would have had him higher on the untouchables list than anyone else in the organization because of the potential. I also thought that he and Tkachuk would potentially be the other dynamic duo to Gaudreau-Monahan in the summer of 2016.

He has not lived up to the hype or expectations and I think for some of the fans it has left them bitter and angry wanting to part ways with Bennett. There are a section of fans that think he is still poised for a breakout season and could be a 25 goal 50+point player (expectations have adjusted but still believe in the player). Then there are the fans that see him for what he is which is an effective middle 6 winger that has shown he can elevate his game when the stakes are higher.

I find myself in the second group who still believes Bennett has a lot more to give. I truly think he was partially ruined by Gulutzan and Peters is on the road the repairing him. If Bennett wanted to sign long term I would be all for it but I think for thebpkayer and team another 2 year deal with a modest raise to $2.5M per makes the most sense. My understanding is 2 years would take him to his final season of being a RFA so as long as the Flames still have his rights that is the way to go
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:39 PM   #155
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I like a lot of what Bennett brings. There are some nights he reminds me of a running back who just needs to be fed the ball; they rarely feed him.

He's physical. He goes to the net, though he still does too many fly-bys - if he stopped up at the side of the cage and planted himself like Monahan does, he'd probably have five extra goals a year.

Bennett's Achilles heel is that he's not a good passer. I don't mean he can't make the occasional 'Holy ####' sort of play. He absolutely can. It's the little basic give and go passes, the passes along the boards, in traffic, over a stick, whatever. Bennett's not good at them. If he was, he'd be a $6M player.

Say what you will about Monahan's shortcomings, but he's a damn good passer. He makes little touch passes and deft skill plays every night, and I wish I saw more of that from Sam.

I don't know how you get better at that. I mean, practice, yes, but I don't know how you can practice your way to being a good passer. I hope he does, though.
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:48 PM   #156
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Its been 4 years and he still toe drags.

Slow learner.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:11 PM   #157
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Funny, Bennett was one of our best PKers just two seasons ago, and since then all he's done is improve on faceoffs and see his PK time dwindle. This was a Flamesnation article written in 2017:

https://flamesnation.ca/2017/01/04/s...-penalty-kill/

as was this:

https://flamesnation.ca/2017/08/01/w...-penalty-kill/

And our PK that year was better than it was this year.
So what are you willing to pay Bennett?
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:20 PM   #158
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So what are you willing to pay Bennett?
I would be pushing for something around or below 4.0M by 8Y, but willing to up to 4.80 if that's what it takes for the 8 year term.
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:24 PM   #159
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I would be pushing for something around or below 4.0M by 8Y, but willing to up to 4.80 if that's what it takes for the 8 year term.
Thats an interesting take. Not very likely, but interesting
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Old 05-14-2019, 02:47 PM   #160
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Funny, Bennett was one of our best PKers just two seasons ago, and since then all he's done is improve on faceoffs and see his PK time dwindle. This was a Flamesnation article written in 2017:

https://flamesnation.ca/2017/01/04/s...-penalty-kill/

as was this:

https://flamesnation.ca/2017/08/01/w...-penalty-kill/

And our PK that year was better than it was this year.
The unit was good, but next to none of that can be attributed to Bennett. We do know he was the 7th foward on the Flames in SHTOI in 2017-2018 with a whopping 0:42 per game. How on earth do you say he was one of the best PKers that year when he wasn't even a regular fixture or first option? These figures do nothing but point out that he was apparently good at cleaning up the scraps left over from the big boys.

This year, the Peters staff cut him out completely to a tune of 0:12 per game which leads one to believe that he was deemed unworthy by a pretty damn good coaching staff. The fact they didn't go back to him when the unit struggled most of the year speaks volumes.

I'm supporting his case to stay because he provides value, but he clearly needs to improve in these areas I mentioned. There's no reason to start throwing around best Pker claims. Faceoffs are nice but pretty irrelevant on a team chalk full of players who can take draws as well. I really don't get the need to continually prop this guy up as more than he is - an effective third liner that could be a game changer on a playoff team if he expands his game even slightly in terms of PK, offensive output.
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