E-scooters are coming

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by GGG

Depends if actual emergency room visits are up overall. Drunk people and kids tend to hurt themselves so are the people getting hurt new injuries or just injuries that would have occurred by this same ground doing something stupid.

Oh yeah there's a million variables. It all depends on statistical abnormality. 145 visits from a hundred thousand trips sounds pretty abnormal. It's been determined abnormal in other locations to the point of it being a public health concern. I saw a pic of my friend's friend's xray from her e scooter wipe out. She has two plates, 21 screws and pins and something that looks like a bike chain holding her calcaneus together. I suppose she could have tripped and done the same thing. But again, if it's abnormal, then it's an issue.

[Dan02]

And how many injuries do you per 100,000 player games do you think hockey has?

Personally, I've separated both shoulders, broken an ankle and had stitches 7 times from hockey.

Should we ban hockey too, Skiing/snowboarding has to be even worse. Or do we just accept that people living interesting lives and having fun comes with a higher likelihood of injury?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Dan02

And how many injuries do you per 100,000 player games do you think hockey has?

Personally, I've separated both shoulders, broken an ankle and had stitches 7 times from hockey.

Should we ban hockey too, Skiing/snowboarding has to be even worse. Or do we just accept that people living interesting lives and having fun comes with a higher likelihood of injury?

Yeah that's what I'm saying. What are the numbers? How many skiers hit the e/r every month? Then you can decide how interesting life needs to be. To me it seems excessive. To you maybe not. But there are stats that can decide this.


I was just curious...skiing averages 1 to 2 injuries visits per 1000 skier visits (I've seen both cited so go with 1.5). A skier visit averages 4.5 hours.



eScooters in Calgary so far are about 1 injury per 1000 uses. An eScooter use averages 12.8 minutes.



I don't know what hockey is but it seems like escooters are sort of not worth living your best life for.

[GGG]

The other thing to look at when looking at e-scooters is that 100% of users right now are new users. Do jurisdictions with long term scooter use see these rates drop as people learn to use them better or does it remain high.

My anecdotal experience is that it isn’t more difficult than a bicycle but the statistics obviously this isn’t born out in the accident statistics.

[TheSutterDynasty]

I can't believe this is a serious discussion that we need to have.

How many people still smoke?

How many people drive a car?

Just because this is something new doesn't mean it deserves any more attention than much more risky behaviours. As long as people are aware there is a risk, let them do what they please.

We live in the weirdest generation..

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by GGG

The other thing to look at when looking at e-scooters is that 100% of users right now are new users. Do jurisdictions with long term scooter use see these rates drop as people learn to use them better or does it remain high.

My anecdotal experience is that it isn’t more difficult than a bicycle but the statistics obviously this isn’t born out in the accident statistics.

Yes for sure. Ski accidents have dropped quite a bit, like 50%, in 30 years. I assume because people improve as does equipment and terrain and rules.



It's not like I'm saying we shouldn't do anything that involves risk. That's just dumb. People still smoking is a crazy comparison. When the Escooter lobby is worth several hundred billion dollars we can talk about that. We mitigate risk all the time. Escooters at this point are very risky and very costly to a publicly funded health system. We can wait around and do what other places do...limit the number of them, limit the hours they can be ridden, etc. Or just stumble around until we figure it out the hard way. I'm good either way.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Yes for sure. Ski accidents have dropped quite a bit, like 50%, in 30 years. I assume because people improve as does equipment and terrain and rules.

You can probably attribute that to bindings being better at releasing (fewer leg injuries) and literally everyone wearing helmets now.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by GGG

The other thing to look at when looking at e-scooters is that 100% of users right now are new users. Do jurisdictions with long term scooter use see these rates drop as people learn to use them better or does it remain high.

My anecdotal experience is that it isn’t more difficult than a bicycle but the statistics obviously this isn’t born out in the accident statistics.

Yes for sure. Ski accidents have dropped quite a bit, like 50%, in 30 years. I assume because people improve as does equipment and terrain and rules.



It's not like I'm saying we shouldn't do anything that involves risk. That's just dumb. People still smoking is a crazy comparison. When the Escooter lobby is worth several hundred billion dollars we can talk about that. We mitigate risk all the time. Escooters at this point are very risky and very costly to a publicly funded health system. We can wait around and do what other places do...limit the number of them, limit the hours they can be ridden, etc. Or just stumble around until we figure it out the hard way. I'm good either way.



Also, hardly anyone gets hurt in a car. You're likely to get in a car accident every 18 years. So what?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

It's not like I'm saying we shouldn't do anything that involves risk. That's just dumb. People still smoking is a crazy comparison. When the Escooter lobby is worth several hundred billion dollars we can talk about that. We mitigate risk all the time. Escooters at this point are very risky and very costly to a publicly funded health system. We can wait around and do what other places do...limit the number of them, limit the hours they can be ridden, etc.

Neither of the bolded statements are statistically true. They're no more risky than cycling, and much less costly than cycling, driving, falling, playing sports, working out, even walking in terms of total burden on our health care system.

I'm fine with mitigating risk, but you and a few others are treating e-scooters like a boogeyman of danger. The evidence does not support your position, and the evidence you're using to try and do that is being done so without considering any context at all.

140ish visits to the emergency room... sounds really scary! Except... it's not... over 500 people are hospitalized every year from slipping on ice while they're walking. Not just emergency room visits... hospitalized. Think about that.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Is that 500 people just in Calgary?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Neither of the bolded statements are statistically true. They're no more risky than cycling, and much less costly than cycling, driving, falling, playing sports, working out, even walking in terms of total burden on our health care system.

I'm fine with mitigating risk, but you and a few others are treating e-scooters like a boogeyman of danger. The evidence does not support your position, and the evidence you're using to try and do that is being done so without considering any context at all.

140ish visits to the emergency room... sounds really scary! Except... it's not... over 500 people are hospitalized every year from slipping on ice while they're walking. Not just emergency room visits... hospitalized. Think about that.

Context is the key for sure. What you're missing is that the average escooter trip lasts 12.8 minutes. The time spent doing every single activity you mention is way way higher. If people only did one ski run a day, and 1 in 1000 went to the hospital, it would be non stop triage and chopper lifts all day every day. You're not comparing anything correctly. Compare walking in the summer to escooters. There are likely close to zero slip and falls and very very few accidents compared to the number of walkers. 7500 people a year go to the hospital from bike accidents in Canada. 200k people a day in Vancouver make a bike trip of 45 minutes or greater. I'm not gong to try to add up nation wide bike trips but I don't think you're creating a same ballpark comparison.


Just a quick look at one study comparing escooter to bike sharing injuries...


https://electric-scooter.guide/guide...stin-portland/


It was published in the WaPo but you can't see it without paying. You're 2.5x-18x's more likely to get injured on an escooter than a bike sharing trip. I'm sure there are lots of reasons, equipment, ability, regulation. We'll figure it out eventually, but there's going to be a lot of cost in the mean time. Experiential learning in this case seems dumb to me.

[Fuzz]

It's pretty obvious watching first time users that some people get it right away, others really struggle. There is no training, you are in the deep end with uneven road surfaces, obstacles, people, traffic, full availability of speed, brakes you aren't familiar with...so it's not a big surprise people are getting hurt on these things. I'd imagine it improves a bit over time. But I don't think it is a stretch to suggest it is more dangerous than walking or riding a bike, because people have mostly been doing those things forever.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Is that 500 people just in Calgary?

It's an estimate for Calgary, based on Alberta's average of 42 per 100,000 people (42x13=546).

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'd imagine it improves a bit over time.

Bingo. 1/3 of injuries occur in first-time riders, with another 1/3 occurring in riders with less than 10 rides under their belt. As people get accustomed to them and as the rules become better understood (people are acting like it's the wild west, but they're illegal on roads, you have to be over 18, and you can't double up, which all seem like risk management techniques) the injuries will drop considerably. This is a new thing. It takes time.

It's also worth mentioning that the Alberta Children's Hospital has seen a large share of the 145 reported emergency room visits. Considering it is not legal for a child to ride these things that should also make the number go down once parents get a clue.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Neither of the bolded statements are statistically true. They're no more risky than cycling, and much less costly than cycling, driving, falling, playing sports, working out, even walking in terms of total burden on our health care system.

For the benefit of the discussion, perhaps you could provide these statistics?

140ish visits to the emergency room... sounds really scary! Except... it's not... over 500 people are hospitalized every year from slipping on ice while they're walking. Not just emergency room visits... hospitalized. Think about that.

On second thought if this is the kind of "statistics" you're going to try to provide, it's probably best if you don't bother. You're attempting to make a direct comparison of only a few weeks data in a largely limited geographical area of the city, in the least dangerous time of year to use a scooter against up to half a year, over the entire city and its entire population, in the most dangerous time of year to walk.

[jwslam]

Originally Posted by TheSutterDynasty

Just because this is something new doesn't mean it deserves any more attention than much more risky behaviours. As long as people are aware there is a risk, let them do what they please.

We live in the weirdest generation..

I have no issue with that, but this person's friend is using up my tax dollars in health care that wouldn't not have happened without a scooter involved, whereas that money is much better used by somebody who is being treated for some random illness not self-inflicted for example.

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Oh yeah there's a million variables. It all depends on statistical abnormality. 145 visits from a hundred thousand trips sounds pretty abnormal. It's been determined abnormal in other locations to the point of it being a public health concern. I saw a pic of my friend's friend's xray from her e scooter wipe out. She has two plates, 21 screws and pins and something that looks like a bike chain holding her calcaneus together. I suppose she could have tripped and done the same thing. But again, if it's abnormal, then it's an issue.

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Similarly, I also firmly believe smokers who get lung cancer should also be on the hook for their own medical bills.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You're attempting to make a direct comparison of only a few weeks data in a largely limited geographical area of the city, in the least dangerous time of year to use a scooter against up to half a year, over the entire city and its entire population, in the most dangerous time of year to walk.

When is the most dangerous time of the year to use a scooter?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's an estimate for Calgary, based on Alberta's average of 42 per 100,000 people (42x13=546).

Gotcha. I mean, it's still high for a month or so of ridership, but I think this is spot on:

As people get accustomed to them and as the rules become better understood (people are acting like it's the wild west, but they're illegal on roads, you have to be over 18, and you can't double up, which all seem like risk management techniques) the injuries will drop considerably.

I was pretty shaky the first time I tried one of them, but after maybe 3 times and half an hour of total time riding it, I got to a point where it's pretty easy. The biggest issues for me are people not paying attention or getting out of the way - the only close calls I've had were pedestrians walking while staring at their phones and almost walking right into me.

After a few weeks with these, I honestly wonder if it wouldn't be better to allow people to just use the privately owned ones at this point, too. If you have your own scooter, first of all you're more likely to want to ride more safely so as not to damage it, but you're also more likely to know how to use it, and I would bet you're also way more likely to use a helmet. Given how much the Lime and Bird ones cost, it doesn't take many rides to pay for a $500 scooter.

[Fuzz]

I think at minimum the city should require them to put stickers with this info on the handlebars or something. Most people are clueless, at least they couldn't plead ignorance. And would maybe at least consider parking it properly if it was directly in front of them, and tourists wouldn't have to guess what they can and can't do:


https://www.calgary.ca/Transportatio...ter-pilot.aspx

[81MC]

Originally Posted by jwslam

I have no issue with that, but this person's friend is using up my tax dollars in health care that wouldn't not have happened without a scooter involved, whereas that money is much better used by somebody who is being treated for some random illness not self-inflicted for example.

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Similarly, I also firmly believe smokers who get lung cancer should also be on the hook for their own medical bills.

The issue with this argument is never ending. Do patients who may have alcohol related issues near the burden as well? How about poor diet and exercise leading to diabetes or heart disease?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

When is the most dangerous time of the year to use a scooter?

Here's a hint: tends to be the same times cycling, jogging and walking tend to be the most dangerous.

Also, nice job dodging literally everything else I said. Not that I'm surprised.