[News] Tentative Agreement Reached! New Arena!

[getbak]

This is the more-detailed document that was presented to Council: https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99772

Also, the "due diligence" documents mentioned in that document:

• https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99773
• https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99774
• https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99775

Some interesting details that I haven't seen mentioned:

Community Engagement Program

• CSEC will create a community engagement program to provide special access to CSEC events at a cost to CSEC of approximately $200,000 per year (indexed to inflation).

Access to Event Centre

• The Stampede will be provided access to the Event Centre for 17 days each year for its events.
• The City will be provided access to the Event Centre for 5 days each year (in addition to those above) for non-commercial events.
• The City will obtain additional access (20 days per year) to the potential secondary facility.
• Community organizations will receive preferential access to the potential secondary facility.

The secondary facility will be built if it can be constructed as part of the total $550 million budget for the whole facility. It will presumably serve as both the practice rink for the Flames and Hitmen as well as a replacement for the Corral and the events held in there (assuming it will be built with a similar capacity to the Corral).


I find it interesting that the Stampede will have access to the building for 17 days each year. I wonder if that's an indication that they are looking at expanding the Stampede from one week to two in the future? Both the PNE in Vancouver and CNE in Toronto are already two weeks long and the Stampede already out-draws the PNE and draws roughly the same number of people as the CNE in half the time.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by getbak

This is the more-detailed document that was presented to Council: https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99772

Also, the "due diligence" documents mentioned in that document:

• https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99773
• https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99774
• https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....cumentId=99775

Some interesting details that I haven't seen mentioned:




The secondary facility will be built if it can be constructed as part of the total $550 million budget for the whole facility. It will presumably serve as both the practice rink for the Flames and Hitmen as well as a replacement for the Corral and the events held in there (assuming it will be built with a similar capacity to the Corral).


I find it interesting that the Stampede will have access to the building for 17 days each year. I wonder if that's an indication that they are looking at expanding the Stampede from one week to two in the future? Both the PNE in Vancouver and CNE in Toronto are already two weeks long and the Stampede already out-draws the PNE and draws roughly the same number of people as the CNE in half the time.

It was mentioned at council tonight that the 17 days was 10 for Stampede and 7 for setup/takedown before and after.

[UKflames]

As a non-Calgary based fan, with no cost implications to my pocket, I am pleased to see that the city might finally be taking a step forward on a new arena for the flames. I have had the 'pleasure' of attending a game at the Dome but it will be amazing to see them in a newer more up to date building (eventually).

[curves2000]

My quick take on the entire deal is that while the Flames ownership group is putting in a little more money than before, they also have more opportunity to generate more as well.

If we take the $275 million in today's dollars and spread that over 35 years, it's still less than $8 mil a year. For that contribution they are getting an opportunity to generate
some parking revenues from a city owned facility, naming rights for a building they don't own, have the city in essence pay for the demolition of their primary competition building, they appear to get first right of refusal to purchase prime land and partner in development that will only further generate revenue and wealth for ownership.

What kind of average citizen get's these types of deals? What assurances will Calgarians get that there will be somewhat reasonably priced food and beverage at a facility that is owned by the city and taxpayers help fund? It's not like hospitals, libraries, schools and city owned skating rinks sell $6 bottled water but the Flames should?

What assurances will downtown restaurant and bars be given that the Flames, who were once just a hockey club and an arena, will not become their biggest competitor now? It sounds like these entertainment districts make a habit of taking a lot of entertainment dollars and concentrating them even more, usually owned by the sports team's themselves. This was an issue in 2016 with the Oilers and was really bad for away playoff games. Everybody loading up into the Katz building buying food and booze meanwhile a bunch of businesses wondering where their boom is?

Friends of mine who are all in the restaurant business in downtown Regina laughed at me. I was there recently and inquired about how business was with all these conventions happening. Everybody said the same thing, "we used to be busy a few years ago but now everybody goes down to the convention center, eats and drinks there with beer gardens and food trucks" Than a report comes out and mentions all the economic benefits and how all these restaurants downtown are suppose to be cashing in.

I am a diehard Flames fan, I go to a ton of games a year, support the team through it all emotionally and financially and everything. I am also a fiscal conservative citizen of this city and I get a little peeved with some of the "contributions" that the ownership group want.

Let's all sit around and clap because the Flames are kind enough to give the city a chunk of the naming rights for a building they don't own, they can generate parking revenue for a city owned parking lot that they don't own?

What would happen to any CP'er who sold the naming rights to City Hall and collected the cash, set up a tent and food/booze and sold parking on city owned lot? Laughable.

I get everything needs to be done and it will end up being a positive and beautiful thing for our city but let's not pretend Edwards, King and the Flames are doing us some massive favor with this whole thing.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I definitely have to get up to Calgary sometime in the next couple of years to take in one last game at the 'dome. One last Pocket Dawg; one last heroin beer.

Okay, so construction begins in 2021. Is there any idea of the expected timeline for completion yet? Probably too premature? I just want to know how much time I have because it's hard to get away from work during the hockey season.

[getbak]

Based on the dates in the documents, it looks like the 2023-24 season is the target opening date (I'm sure they'd love to be open in time for the Stampede in 2023 if at all possible).

When you look at how things went in Edmonton and Detroit, they both took about 30 months from the beginning of construction until opening. Like the new building in Calgary, both of those buildings were built on old parking lots, so there wasn't a lot of demolition required before construction could begin.

I'd guess the plan is to start site prep next fall and close the parking lots at the start of next season. Then, official groundbreaking and the start of construction in spring 2021, opening in fall 2023 (40 years after the Saddledome).

If the schedule slips, it could possibly be the fall of 2024 at the latest. We're looking at another 4 seasons in the Saddledome, with the possibility of being 5 more seasons.

[Reggie28]

Watching Alberta prime time (channel 102). Canadian taxpayer federation guy beating the message of no taxpayer dollars for billionaires paying millionaires. Not much else to say besides that.

I usually support the CTF, but really, if you oppose the deal make a better argument. The sad thing is, lots of Calgarians will jump on the “billionaires have billions, hockey players make millions” bandwagon.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by getbak

Demong, Farkas, Farrell, and Woolley were the yes votes. Jones and DCU were not present. All others voted no.

This isn't the Federal election where we can wipe our hands clean and blame Ontario and Quebec for deciding on our government. Calgarians really need to do a better job voting for councillors. For a councillor that has got her way with plenty of her own pet projects, her aggressive anti-fluoride campaign, trying to fast track her personal vendetta against drivers with her 30 km/hr speed limits, Farrell and the sure likes to be a stick in the mud for anything that doesn't suit her flowery ideologies.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

So those guys from Ernst and Young who have been an integral part of the discussion don't know what they are doing? Good thing they released all the information and you caught the fault in the discussion.

It's not that I've found it though. It's that what we have to look at is a sales pitch, effectively. The actual figures aren't going to look as good is my guess. I mean it's an agreement in principle and saying it's a great deal is just questionable at this point.

But specifically, to your last point, they didn't release all the information. I'm sure they must have done the NPV, and it's not there to see. Instead we have today's values to look at for a 35 year project.

[GGG]

A few other things from that document package. The 75 million for sport is a 1.5 million per year payment increasing 2% per year. This appears to replace the current Flames “donation” to the Saddledome foundation so isn’t really new money

In the first 5 years the city maximum of the facility fee is limited to 3 million then remainder is 2%. To get 3 million from 2% you would need to have 150,000,000 million in ticket sales. Excluding boxes that is about 8000 dollars a seat. I’m not sure if that is realistic or not. How much does a flames home game bring in ticket sales 2 million ????

[GGG]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Wow. Davison throwing down the gauntlet. Says if council votes to delay vote that they will be known as the council that lost the Calgary Flames.

Wooley is trying to delay the vote on the deal until September.

I think 1 week is too short to properly have the public and journalists dissect the deal. Good analysis will likely take until Thursday to be released. The time period is clearly designed for momentum and excitement to carry it through to a vote.

I think 2 weeks would have been very reasonable. If a 4 week difference kills this deal then it’s not a good deal. If the concern is the public might have a negative reaction over a longer period then it’s not a good deal.

[Reggie28]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

As a finance guy, I can say this looks like a pretty close 33% split between each of the Flames, City and Users (ticket tax) when you discount back to the Present Value of the ticket tax.

I’m happy with the dome, but a new building was inevitable. This year the flames are charging me just over $7000 for second deck tickets. I’m not a finance guy, but if they could charge 8k or 10k, I’m sure they would. Now with a ticket tax, levy, fee, whatever it is called, does that not come out of what the flames can charge ticket holders?

When my invoice comes out, i look at the bottom line, the total cost of my season tickets and decided to renew or not renew.

If all of the above is true, we are back to the flames paying 66%.
(Completely disregarding revenues from non-flames events)

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think 1 week is too short to properly have the public and journalists dissect the deal. Good analysis will likely take until Thursday to be released. The time period is clearly designed for momentum and excitement to carry it through to a vote.

I think 2 weeks would have been very reasonable. If a 4 week difference kills this deal then it’s not a good deal. If the concern is the public might have a negative reaction over a longer period then it’s not a good deal.

This is what concerns me. It's being rushed through under the guise of momentum, but what they don't want is people digging into things and asking too many questions. It's really pathetic.

And lest anyone think otherwise, I'm in favour of a new arena. I support the Flames and city, and I think it's got to happen. That just doesn't mean at any cost though. I've come to grips with the fact that public money is going to subsidize a private business and no one will spend the political capital to change that for some reason. But come on...just level with us and show us the numbers so we know what we're actually on the hook for.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Slava

This is what concerns me. It's being rushed through under the guise of momentum, but what they don't want is people digging into things and asking too many questions. It's really pathetic.

And lest anyone think otherwise, I'm in favour of a new arena. I support the Flames and city, and I think it's got to happen. That just doesn't mean at any cost though. I've come to grips with the fact that public money is going to subsidize a private business and no one will spend the political capital to change that for some reason. But come on...just level with us and show us the numbers so we know what we're actually on the hook for.

People take this stuff far too personally like it's coming out of their own personal bank account. Plenty of people were against stuff like the bridge and library but the reality is that they got built, they moved the city forward, plenty of Calgarians like them and use them daily, and the dissenters were not inconvenienced in any manner outside of the fact that they didn't get their way. I get that we should know that they just aren't throwing tax payer money away but you really aren't on the hook for anything.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by getbak

The secondary facility will be built if it can be constructed as part of the total $550 million budget for the whole facility. It will presumably serve as both the practice rink for the Flames and Hitmen as well as a replacement for the Corral and the events held in there (assuming it will be built with a similar capacity to the Corral).

this is the only part that's kind of sucks for you guys, I think. that they didn't guarantee the secondary facility.

what are the odds the project is far enough under budget to be able to build the secondary rink?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

this is the only part that's kind of sucks for you guys, I think. that they didn't guarantee the secondary facility.

what are the odds the project is far enough under budget to be able to build the secondary rink?

Close to zero.

If you look at Edmonton’s 613 million budget 550 would cover the arena and the public areas. I think this is one where the project comes back to the city asking for another 25 million or they have to cut the Arena. At least their being upfront about it being on the chopping block.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

this is the only part that's kind of sucks for you guys, I think. that they didn't guarantee the secondary facility.

what are the odds the project is far enough under budget to be able to build the secondary rink?

Under budget? Oh that's cute.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by GGG

Close to zero.

If you look at Edmonton’s 613 million budget 550 would cover the arena and the public areas. I think this is one where the project comes back to the city asking for another 25 million or they have to cut the Arena. At least their being upfront about it being on the chopping block.

surprised that they didn't add another 20 million or so to make sure it got done.
there has to be a ton of advantages to having an onsite secondary facility.
I don't think many would mind the extra few dollars.

I can't see them not being given the money down the road.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by GGG

In the first 5 years the city maximum of the facility fee is limited to 3 million then remainder is 2%. To get 3 million from 2% you would need to have 150,000,000 million in ticket sales. Excluding boxes that is about 8000 dollars a seat. I’m not sure if that is realistic or not. How much does a flames home game bring in ticket sales 2 million ????

How are you getting $8000?

150 000 000 / 41 home games / 19 000 seats = $192.55 average seat cost for the Flames to generate $150 million in ticket sales.

Which is still relatively high, but the facility fee is supposed to be also collected from Hitmen, Roughneck, and other non CSEC commercial events (i.e. concerts) which I think is part of the projected $150 million. So it is plausible IMO.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Really? Why such hatred? I dont think it's bad at all and it is unique. I've always liked that calgary's arena had a more unique name than the rest.

A few people here will love this: They felt that the use of "Corral" and the associated western imagery made the city look like a hick town. Also, anyone who's ever mucked a stable or corral knows it's smelly and unpleasant. So for those people, a different kind of negative connotation.

Originally Posted by kukkudo

The city and flames ownership aren't gonna lose 5-10 plus million a year for naming rights from one of the big Canadian companies

I expect under Monahammer's idea, it would be the "Scotiabank Corral" or something similar.