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Old 06-13-2018, 10:07 AM   #14001
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Yeah, in a deal where we swap Hamilton for Karlsson, it's the Flames adding for sure.

However, I don't think it should be as much as much of an add as most probably would.

IMO Hamilton would eat into a lot of the value Karlsson has by himself, as he's a big young cost controlled RH shooting offensive Dman and would be a pretty good replacement for the Sens to get with Karlsson gone.
I agree, I think it would be a couple of guys to gamble on like Gillies and Klimchuk. Not sure things but the potential to be solid pieces going forward.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:13 AM   #14002
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Because for a team starved for offence, trading your top point getter on defence just doesn't make sense. 60 -70 point winger for a 40 - 50 point defence man with room to push above 50 points is not a substantive upgrade. They need to add offence to the offensive players that are working on the team, not subtract offensive players to get marginally better offensive players. Also, having offence from the blue line diversifies your offence. If all of your offence is tied up in two top lines, you become very easy to shut down. If you add an offensive player to the top six while keeping some punch from the blue line in Gio and Dougie, now you are talking about upgrading the team. But trading one for the other is just not enough.
Gio has scored 56pts before, Brodie with 45 in 75 games, and Andersson had 39pts in 56 games in the AHL last year. We have players that can produce from the back end (albeit not at Hamiltonís level).

Which forward on the team outside of Monahan, Gaudreau, and Tkachuk (who hasnít cracked 50pts yet) will be able to score 60-70 on the Flames?
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:18 AM   #14003
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Gio has scored 56pts before, Brodie with 45 in 75 games, and Andersson had 39pts in 56 games in the AHL last year. We have players that can produce from the back end (albeit not at Hamiltonís level).

Which forward on the team outside of Monahan, Gaudreau, and Tkachuk (who hasnít cracked 50pts yet) will be able to score 60-70 on the Flames?
Obviously they need to add offensive players up front. But subtracting a potent offensive threat from the backend to get it is not smart asset management. Expecting Brodie to get back to 45 points or for Andersson to somehow be an offensive dynamo is very risky. Why not use those players and/or other prospect assets to add to your big guns rather than subtracting one of them? Diversify your offence, not subtract one strength to get another.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:19 AM   #14004
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Why not Alexander Barabanov if Treliving is looking for European talent for the AHL? 23 year old (LH) RW who is reportedly a good skater with a quick release and who was strong at the most recent WHC.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:20 AM   #14005
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Look, if Hamilton can land a legitimate top centre or high offensive centre, then you consider it. But trading Hamilton for a winger does not substantively change your team. Wingers just don't impact the style of play enough for that move to make sense.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:21 AM   #14006
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Originally Posted by wingmaker View Post
Because for a team starved for offence, trading your top point getter on defence just doesn't make sense. 60 -70 point winger for a 40 - 50 point defence man with room to push above 50 points is not a substantive upgrade. They need to add offence to the offensive players that are working on the team, not subtract offensive players to get marginally better offensive players. Also, having offence from the blue line diversifies your offence. If all of your offence is tied up in two top lines, you become very easy to shut down.



Sure but you have to give to get. It's not like BT can package Frolik and Bennett and expect to get a 60-70 point forward back. And there are no more picks to trade. I just don't see what other pieces there are to get back first line talent.


Defense is supposed to be the strength of this team so subtracting from there makes the most sense.



And honestly, I don't think this team is even a two line threat up front at this moment. There is a clear upgrade needed in the top six.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:23 AM   #14007
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Sure but you have to give to get. It's not like BT can package Frolik and Bennett and expect to get a 60-70 point forward back. And there are no more picks to trade. I just don't see what other pieces there are to get back first line talent.


Defense is supposed to be the strength of this team so subtracting from there makes the most sense.



And honestly, I don't think this team is even a two line threat up front at this moment. There is a clear upgrade needed in the top six.
Then trade Brodie or Hamonic or Andersson or Fox. If these players are so good that we can afford to trade Hamilton, surely you can build an attractive package around one or two of them with something else to get a good player back.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:24 AM   #14008
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When the Flames talk about trading from a position of strength, its their defensive depth/prospects not their top D. Which is why personally I can't see that happening.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:25 AM   #14009
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Obviously they need to add offensive players up front. But subtracting a potent offensive threat from the backend to get it is not smart asset management. Expecting Brodie to get back to 45 points or for Andersson to somehow be an offensive dynamo is very risky. Why not use those players and/or other prospect assets to add to your big guns rather than subtracting one of them? Diversify your offence, not subtract one strength to get another.
I donít think those assets get the player we need in return. Itnisnrisky hoping they fill those shoes but we canít expect Brodie (coming off 2 down years) to bring back a bona fide top line forward
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:25 AM   #14010
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When the Flames talk about trading from a position of strength, its their depth/prospects not their top D. Which is why personally I can't see that happening.
Exactly.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:26 AM   #14011
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I donít think those assets get the player we need in return. Itnisnrisky hoping they fill those shoes but we canít expect Brodie (coming off 2 down years) to bring back a bona fide top line forward
Lol. Brodie not good enough to get a top six player in return, but the Flames will be fine putting Brodie on the top pairing in Hamilton's place when he's gone. Logic does not compute.

Especially when the incoming coach has said he wants more offence from the back end.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:29 AM   #14012
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When the Flames talk about trading from a position of strength, its their defensive depth/prospects not their top D. Which is why personally I can't see that happening.
After trading several picks to acquire players I canít see the Flames thinning out their pipeline even further to add win now players. They need ELC players to contribute to the roster. If they are looking st Brodie/Stone to land them the coveted forward we are probably getting a guy like Pacioretty or Simmonds who are 30 and need fat contract extensions next year which has the Flames carrying cap hits north of $5M for 30+ players which they are already doing with Gio/Backlund
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:33 AM   #14013
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When the Flames talk about trading from a position of strength, its their defensive depth/prospects not their top D. Which is why personally I can't see that happening.
Exactly. Trading our best young defenceman just creates another hole. Unless people feel that Brodie is the next #1 here
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:37 AM   #14014
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After trading several picks to acquire players I canít see the Flames thinning out their pipeline even further to add win now players. They need ELC players to contribute to the roster. If they are looking st Brodie/Stone to land them the coveted forward we are probably getting a guy like Pacioretty or Simmonds who are 30 and need fat contract extensions next year which has the Flames carrying cap hits north of $5M for 30+ players which they are already doing with Gio/Backlund
Yes, but you don't replace Dougie Hamilton with a player on his ELC. So then you have to move everyone up the lineup. None of them match Hamilton's output, and only Hamonic is defensively superior (of the remaining D that could play beside Gio, not saying Hamilton is the most defensive).

The hope for the Flames would be that a team rebuilding/retooling will want to shed salary for high end prospects that could step in when they are ready to compete in 2-3 years time. Thats where your depth comes in. Flames want to win now and have mortgaged the future to an extent in an attempt to do so.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:38 AM   #14015
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Lol. Brodie not good enough to get a top six player in return, but the Flames will be fine putting Brodie on the top pairing in Hamilton's place when he's gone. Logic does not compute.

Especially when the incoming coach has said he wants more offence from the back end.
I suspect if Brodano is reunited that pair will once again be a formidable top pairing as they were prior to Gulutzan and moving Brodie to the left side. Rather try that than sell low st Brodie where he can bounce back elsewhere and get a huge return for Hamilton.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:48 AM   #14016
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I mean, we've got 2-3 kids in the minors that are more than ready for their shot with the big club (Andersson, Kylington and Valimaki could be ready) coupled with the UFA pickup this week I think its very clear Calgary will be doing SOMETHING in the trade department that's specific to defense for offence.

If we're not going to trade current top 6 defenseman for forward scoring help then what does that say to the young kids in the system? Calgary historically is never really keen on giving young kids the chance to run with it for a season, we usually bring in a cagey old vet rather than "gift" the spot to a young guy out of camp.

Personally I feel this has to change, and maybe it will with Burke gone from the organization now. These kids are ready to either make it or break it, we wont know until they are a given a fair look.

I'm all for trading Brodie or Stone or Hamilton or even 2 out of the 3 if it secures us BETTER assets on the front line and allows us to bring up 1-2 kids from the farm that have shown thus far they are ready to compete with the big club.

If were not going to do that, then were forced to trade these young assets for forward help and I personally believe you need young prospects on your team to allow yourself the cap to push for a cup, most of these playoff contenders have 5-6 homegrown "rookies" in the lineup any given night, they aren't full of cagey UFA's or stacked with a top 6 defense core filled with players all making above 4M a season, its just not plausible in today's game.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:53 AM   #14017
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Lucic could be coveted by a team that wants to have a high cap, but lower actual salary. After July 1 he is only paid $4.5 mill a year on the average. Savings of $7.5 million could be looked at by a team like Carolina.
No. No team will be coveting Lucic's five-year cap hit. That contract is completely toxic: it won't yield on-ice results, it can't be bought out, it can't be traded.

Milan Lucic is an Oiler. He will remain an Oiler.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:54 AM   #14018
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I suspect if Brodano is reunited that pair will once again be a formidable top pairing as they were prior to Gulutzan and moving Brodie to the left side. Rather try that than sell low st Brodie where he can bounce back elsewhere and get a huge return for Hamilton.
Fair enough. But your preferred scenario is based on four very big assumptions:

Assumption 1) Brodie/Andersson/Fox/whomever will not bring back a valuable top six forward capable of increasing the offence up front.

Assumption 2) Brodie will be put back on the top line with Giordano and will return to the point totals of three seasons ago.

Assumption 3) Giordano will continue to be the Flames most important denfeceman and will continue to drive play, even if paired with a player who has not been able to drive play on his own.

Assumption 4) Peters will not substantively change the style of play to utilize Hamilton's strengths better.

I don't agree with those assumptions. First of all, I don't know what Brodie or some other package could bring back. Maybe you are correct, but until I know that for a fact I won't assume it to be true. Secondly, I don't think relying on Brodie to carry the mail on a team that has aspirations to go on a long playoff run while Gaudreau and Monahan are still in their prime's is a good bet. That seems like a very big gamble to me, and not one I would take if I was running the team. It is further based on other gambles that Andersson or Valimaki will become top tier defensemen in the next couple of seasons to supplant Giordano.

Additionally, if the new coaching staff can build a power play using Hamilton's strengths, something the team did not do last year, he may be able to hit 55+ points. That actually seems like a safer bet than Brodie returning to 45 points. If I trade Hamilton now, I will never know if a new coach could have got even more offence out of him.

To me, why would I take all that risk when I already have a top tier, young defensemen who might get better? I would explore all other options, including trading Bennett, Jankowski or seeing whom I can bring in through free agency before I use Hamilton. Using Hamilton to upgrade upfront is a last ditch move, and probably one I would only consider after next year if the team continues to underwhelm.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:05 AM   #14019
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I see a flaw in your first statement as it is not really comparing apples to apples. Gio was an indrafted player and Dougie was a top 10 pick. Many people are saying Sam Bennett is a huge bust but the they are also excited that Spencer Foo (who is 2 years older than Sam) has potential to be a top 6 forward. Gio was clearly a late bloomer.

Dougie has not proven to be capable on theboenalty kill so he is not an all situations type guy. The Brodie-Gio pairing was extremely elite and consider the fact they had fantastic numbers when the rest of the team had horrendous possession metrics. Gio and Dougie are an elite pairing but Gulutzan made the Flames as a whole a strong possession team.

Flames have Andersson who will not replace Hamilton but will step in as a RHD and has shown great offensive ability in junior and pro. Somwhile the Flames have 4 very intriguing D prospects they lack the same potential up front.

Yes Brodie is an expendable piece but I am not convinced he will return the type of impact forward the Flames need and that is the crux of my arguement. I want the Flames to consider moving Dougie if they can get the right return for a 25 year old top pair D with size and can shoot right. If Treliving trades Hamilton for less than he is worth I will be pissed.
Where they were drafted is immaterial. 24 year old Dougie has 400+ NHL games and 200+ points. He's light years better than 24 year old Gio. This is a player who gets better every year, and I don't see why he's going to be less effective at 28, 29, 30 than now.

Should you not want to use the Gio example, consider former 1st round pick Brent Burns. Dougie's numbers by age 24 obliterate Brent Burns'. And I don't expect we're going to see Dougie take a year to play forward. Why are we trading 24 year old nicer Brent Burns?

He doesn't kill penalties. Anyone can kill penalties. Your job is to get in the way and ice the puck. You're basically a meat shield. They have Stone, Hamonic, Gio and Brodie who aren't needed for the 1st power play, so Dougie doesn't need to kill penalties. I guarantee before his career is done, Hamilton will be a fixture on the PK.

You trade Brodie and all you need to do is find another guy who can play in the top 4. Sign Thomas Hickey and I don't think we lose THAT much, all things considered. Trade Hamilton and you're immediately trying to find another Hamilton.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:15 AM   #14020
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I don't understand why it's so inconceivable to consider trading Hamilton.

If you can bring in a 60-70 point forward it will result in a net positive change in offense for a team that's starving for offense. And if someone thinks Hamilton should be kept for his defense then I don't know what to say. It's not like he's Chris Pronger back there.

Then you can put Brodie back with Gio, who can carry Brodie on his back if needed to.
But the most glaring hole up front on this team is not on the top line, it is in the bottom-nine. I don't think the Flames need a 60Ė70 point forward as desperately as they need more players to produce 15Ė20 goals in lines 2 and 3 especially. This does not require the acquisition of a top-30 scorer.

The Flames would be much improved by adding a player who can drive a second scoring line. A secondary-offensive forward of this sort is the kind of player that they realistically could acquire by moving Brodie.
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