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Old 02-13-2018, 10:11 AM   #301
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We can talk about why there weren't natives on the jury when you have a pool of 750 and each side has 12 strikes. Is there a transcript or record of the jury selection and why people were struck from the jury pool. Did someone stack it so the first 100 people in the jury list were all whites?
I was summoned for jury selection last year.

If I recall correctly . . . . .

In the selection process, youíre assigned a number.

A group of, say, 10 numbers, is randomly drawn.

People matching those numbers are called forward and the defence or crown has an opportunity to reject you for no specified reason, or accept you. They can also ask you a question or two. A number of people were rejected without comment by both sides.

Groups of randomly drawn numbers continue to be called until 12 jurors are approved. Plus an alternate or two I think.

But thereís no opportunity to stack the first 100 selections by race.

From what I saw in the Calgary process, there were plenty of visible minorities in the crowd, including a gentleman beside me who arrived late and relied on me to explain to him what was happening (being a know-it-all, I was happy to oblige).

It was a trial for cocaine trafficking. The defendant was on hand and was a visible minority.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:22 AM   #302
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Sorry I'm old and 22 is a kid to me. Yes I get that they are adults I'm not trying to skew any narrative.

Yes I agree they put themselves in the spot and I do understand why people aren't losing sleep.

It's sad though. It's sad that I know people who are rejoicing in this. It's sad that a life isn't more valuable.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:35 AM   #303
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If Bushie was a white guy, this story would have about one-tenth the public profile. The country wasn't exactly up in arms when Weibo Ludwig shot and killed a 16 year old girl trespassing on his property almost 20 years ago, was it?

So I don't buy the notion that this proves how cheap the lives of natives in Canada are, or that Canadians are being insensitive about the fatality. More people are grieving over Bushie than any other young adult shot and killed in recent memory.

Comparing this incident with the Ludwig case gives us a lot insights into how today's politicization of every issue warps our perceptions and dialog.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:37 AM   #304
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Sorry I'm old and 22 is a kid to me. Yes I get that they are adults I'm not trying to skew any narrative.

Yes I agree they put themselves in the spot and I do understand why people aren't losing sleep.

It's sad though. It's sad that I know people who are rejoicing in this. It's sad that a life isn't more valuable.
I don't think anybody is saying that life isn't valuable, or that Colten Bushie's life is any less valuable than Stanley's. I think the Stanley "Supporters" are simply saying actions have consequences, and the victim of poor choices shouldn't be the only one held accountable.

Bushie and Friends made terrible choice after terrible choice that day, that put many lives at risk including their own. Choosing to go on a crime spree, while under the influence, and carrying a weapon is a choice that puts your life at risk. Much like sky diving is a choice that puts your life at risk. When a divers chute doesn't open, people don't look to the colour of the instructors skin to find an excuse, or blame the parachute, or the ground. It's a tragic accident, much like Bushie's death was, but it was an accident caused by the situation the individual puts him or herself in. It all could have been avoided, a physical life would not have been lost, and the lives of multiple families, including the Stanley's would not have been destroyed, had these adults not made decisions that put everyone at risk.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:38 AM   #305
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If Bushie was a white guy, this story would have about one-tenth the public profile. The country wasn't exactly up in arms when Weibo Ludwig shot and killed a 16 year old girl trespassing on his property almost 20 years ago, was it?

So I don't buy the notion that this proves how cheap the lives of natives in Canada are, or that Canadians are being insensitive about the fatality. More people are grieving over Bushie than any other young adult shot and killed in recent memory.

Comparing this incident with the Ludwig case gives us a lot insights into how today's politicization of every issue warps our perceptions and dialog.
Um I remember that it was a very big story, and it completely made Ludwig a crazy environmentalist nut who's family was created via incest relationships and that he had murdered the girl.

Of course Ludwig was completely crazy, and already had a fairly high standing in his community.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:39 AM   #306
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If Bushie was a white guy, this story would have about one-tenth the public profile. The country wasn't exactly up in arms when Weibo Ludwig shot and killed a 16 year old girl trespassing on his property almost 20 years ago, was it?
It was a big story, though charges were not laid:

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...farm-shooting/

http://www.dailyheraldtribune.com/20...sure-will-come

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/charge...p-say-1.171860

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...article795885/
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:39 AM   #307
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Again, you made the conscious effort to call them kids to defend your own narrative that his wasn't an adult criminal. He wasn't a kid.

I'm sorry, but when you decide to start a crime spree with a loaded weapon and put innocent people at risks for your life, it's not villainizing, it's simply being a villain.

With that said, yes, he didn't deserve to die and yes, I believe it's an extremely unfortunate situation. But with all the injustices in the world, you should be able to understand why some people aren't losing sleep because some criminal with a loaded gun who was on a crime spree is dead.
These are fair points. If everyone could also understand why some people are experiencing frustration and anger and grief over the premature and pointless death of yet another young indigenous person (in a long, long line of such deaths), with little in way of closure or anything that feels like justice, this country might be able to take the first tentative steps towards reconciliation. I hope it happens one day.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:45 AM   #308
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Country kids drink on the backroads and get into all sorts of trouble, white or native. From all accounts that's what Stanley was dealing with. Drunk kids/young adults. When the bullets started flying they were running, which was the desired result, but they weren't fighting.
I think one thing that needs more consideration is the fact that calling the cops to deal with this sort of situation is not an option in rural Saskatchewan. Even here it's 15-20 to get cops in and around Priddis. It's very common and quite frankly logical to have guns at your disposal. Maybe self defense and castle rights should be a little different than in areas where people are more commonly entering your property and where cops are more available.

I think there needs to be some consideration of the fact that accidents with guns happen all the time. Cheney shot his hunting buddy in the ass. Every single year people shoot each other accidentally for a number of reasons. It's not that wildly uncommon. Should he have used a newer gun with better ammo? Yes. Is it illegal not to? Maybe. The guy is still charged with careless storage of a firearm. So maybe.

I do find it interesting that the narrative of some kids just looking for help with a flat tire has been thoroughly abandoned.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:48 AM   #309
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This really feels like reading the takes on a case like Michael Brown’s. The dogged insistence on whistling about thugs, crime sprees, weapons the farmer apparently had no knowledge of, and the attempts to assassinate the character of the deceased young man in order to justify the farmer’s actions are wild to me. You can support him without needing to try and vilify the dead man. I suppose maybe I just don’t understand the frontier justice mindset.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:58 AM   #310
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I think one thing that needs more consideration is the fact that calling the cops to deal with this sort of situation is not an option in rural Saskatchewan. Even here it's 15-20 to get cops in and around Priddis. It's very common and quite frankly logical to have guns at your disposal. Maybe self defense and castle rights should be a little different than in areas where people are more commonly entering your property and where cops are more available.

I think there needs to be some consideration of the fact that accidents with guns happen all the time. Cheney shot his hunting buddy in the ass. Every single year people shoot each other accidentally for a number of reasons. It's not that wildly uncommon. Should he have used a newer gun with better ammo? Yes. Is it illegal not to? Maybe. The guy is still charged with careless storage of a firearm. So maybe.

I do find it interesting that the narrative of some kids just looking for help with a flat tire has been thoroughly abandoned.
Just to elaborate on this, I grew up less then 3 km outside of Red Deer. In the 20+ years I was there I think we needed the police 3 or 4 times. The quickest time being 45 mins.. And that was when I was home and someone was trying to break into the house at night...

Don't get me started on fire response..
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:59 AM   #311
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^No one vilifying anyone, Stanley took actions that were reasonable in the eyes of the law. Certainly, the Canadian system favours the accused and the assumption of innocence is consistently applied.

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Old 02-13-2018, 11:11 AM   #312
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^No one vilifying anyone, Stanley took actions that were reasonable in the eyes of the law.
Well, in the eyes of the jury. Other juries, or a trial judge (if tried by judge alone), may have reached a different conclusion. Also, presumably, the jury was not satisfied BRD that Mr. Stanley intended to shoot Mr. Boushie.

Unfortunately, without reasons, we are just left to speculate why the jury made the decision that it did. Juries are a wild card.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:18 AM   #313
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This really feels like reading the takes on a case like Michael Brownís. The dogged insistence on whistling about thugs, crime sprees, weapons the farmer apparently had no knowledge of, and the attempts to assassinate the character of the deceased young man in order to justify the farmerís actions are wild to me. You can support him without needing to try and vilify the dead man. I suppose maybe I just donít understand the frontier justice mindset.

Hummm the Michael Brown that had just robbed a 7-11?
That had just threatened the clerk working there?
That failed to obey a police officer and assaulted a police officer?

The left wing news media has done an excellent job of character assassinating the (white farmer) and making the deceased an innocent bystander. All I'm asking for is a little bit of non bias journalism.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:23 AM   #314
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Well, in the eyes of the jury. Other juries, or a trial judge (if tried by judge alone), may have reached a different conclusion. Also, presumably, the jury was not satisfied BRD that Mr. Stanley intended to shoot Mr. Boushie.

Unfortunately, without reasons, we are just left to speculate why the jury made the decision that it did. Juries are a wild card.
Maybe, but thats just speculation, in a system where multiple murderers go unpunished and terrorists are rewarded this is hardly out of line. It would have been very surprising if he was found guilty.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:24 AM   #315
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This really feels like reading the takes on a case like Michael Brownís. The dogged insistence on whistling about thugs, crime sprees, weapons the farmer apparently had no knowledge of, and the attempts to assassinate the character of the deceased young man in order to justify the farmerís actions are wild to me. You can support him without needing to try and vilify the dead man. I suppose maybe I just donít understand the frontier justice mindset.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:33 AM   #316
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Maybe, but thats just speculation, in a system where multiple murderers go unpunished and terrorists are rewarded this is hardly out of line. It would have been very surprising if he was found guilty.
I completely disagree. Intent must (nearly) always be inferred from oneís actions. Mr. Stanley shot someone in the head at short range. A jury or judge could easily have inferred that this was intentional (especially because there was evidence to suggest a potential motive as well). Now, there were some unusual circumstances. Mr. Stanley provided an innocent explanation of the whole thing. It apparently raised a reasonable doubt in the juryís mind. So be it.

But I would guess that the accidental misfire explanation would not succeed in the vast majority of similar situations (say, for example, a young black man shooting someone in the head at close range in a mall in Scarborough.)

Every case is unique. Iím not saying the jury got it wrong (I didnít hear the evidence). But I donít know how anyone could have been surprised if the verdict was guilty of murder either.
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:37 AM   #317
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I completely disagree. Intent must (nearly) always be inferred from oneís actions. Mr. Stanley shot someone in the head at short range. A jury or judge could easily have inferred that this was intentional (especially because there was evidence to suggest a potential motive as well). Now, there were some unusual circumstances. Mr. Stanley provided an innocent explanation of the whole thing. It apparently raised a reasonable doubt in the juryís mind. So be it.

But I would guess that the accidental misfire explanation would not succeed in the vast majority of similar situations (say, for example, a young black man shooting someone in the head at close range in a mall in Scarborough.)

Every case is unique. Iím not saying the jury got it wrong (I didnít hear the evidence). But I donít know how anyone could have been surprised if the verdict was guilty of murder either.
Second Degree murder made no sense.

Manslaughter yes. I honestly thought he would get this. But as you said I didn't hear the evidence
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:38 AM   #318
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This really feels like reading the takes on a case like Michael Brownís. The dogged insistence on whistling about thugs, crime sprees, weapons the farmer apparently had no knowledge of, and the attempts to assassinate the character of the deceased young man in order to justify the farmerís actions are wild to me. You can support him without needing to try and vilify the dead man. I suppose maybe I just donít understand the frontier justice mindset.
It's actually interesting reading that Michael Brown thread compared to this one. Full of nuance and people recognizing the broader racial overtones even if you could argue that race didn't play a factor in this specific instance.

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=139054
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:42 AM   #319
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I completely disagree. Intent must (nearly) always be inferred from oneís actions. Mr. Stanley shot someone in the head at short range. A jury or judge could easily have inferred that this was intentional (especially because there was evidence to suggest a potential motive as well). Now, there were some unusual circumstances. Mr. Stanley provided an innocent explanation of the whole thing. It apparently raised a reasonable doubt in the juryís mind. So be it.

But I would guess that the accidental misfire explanation would not succeed in the vast majority of similar situations (say, for example, a young black man shooting someone in the head at close range in a mall in Scarborough.)

Every case is unique. Iím not saying the jury got it wrong (I didnít hear the evidence). But I donít know how anyone could have been surprised if the verdict was guilty of murder either.
Like you say, intent is key. Stanley never intended to shoot anyone, that can be inferred from both his testimony and his actions.

If people are going to demand that the villificationnof the deceased stop, then they should also be demanding that the constant attempts to turn this into a race issue should stop as well. No evidence was ever submitted to allege that this was race based, but portions of the public are trying to make the entire cae about race. And they are not stopping there, we now have opportunistic meddling by politicians trying to drum up votes and demands to implement measures that would change the legal system to make it even more race based
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:45 AM   #320
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Second Degree murder made no sense.

Manslaughter yes. I honestly thought he would get this. But as you said I didn't hear the evidence
Well, again, the uncontradicted (albeit simplified) evidence was that, in the heat of the moment, he shot someone in the head at close range and killed him. Absent self defence, those facts are, in my opinion, going to result in a second degree murder conviction in the vast majority of cases.

This was one of the exceptions. Fair enough. Iím not saying the jury got it wrong.

But I find it not at all surprising that people are frustrated and angry that this case, involving a white farmer and indigenous young person, should be one of those rare exceptions (especially when viewed through the prism of the past 400 years of European-First Nations relations).
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