[News] Ken King: Flames' owners no longer pursuing new arena with City of Calgary

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by nik-

I want people who have a different opinion to me to be honest about why they have that opinion and not continue going to the well of arguments that has been shown again and again to be dubious at best.

The way I'm framing my argument is as someone who has seen the numerous commentaries and documents linked in the multiple iterations of these threads showing that this is a bad deal for cities, and now get to see the same people, who just completely ignore the above, try to trot out the same talking points again and again.

I can totally accept someone who has weighed the cost/benefit scenarios and decided in spite of them that this is something they want because they love the Flames. As I said, clearly, in my post.

As for the "what gives you the right" part, come on. You're a little tougher than that.

Except there is tangible value, direct economic and indirect. The question is, how much (or perhaps how little is a better way to put it) - but certainly value. The argument that there is zero value is every bit as bad as the ones suggesting there is significant value.
We've had one zero value guy who keeps telling people who assign more than zero value are stupid put into timeout today. That helps

[CroFlames]

I like what Jay Random had to say in this thread.

Subsidizing arenas for billionaire owners is bad. There's no economic benefit for the taxpayer, and all we get in return is higher ticket prices and less bang for our entertainment budget buck. Billionaires should be able to fund their own rinks.

However, almost all other billionaire owners have, in one way or the other, received money from the public coffer for their arena or stadium. It's impossible for the Flames to pay their staff (salary floor) if they are completely 100% privately funded when their competitor franchises are publicly subsidized.

It sucks, but if you like NHL hockey, public money is going to the rink in some form or another because all other NHL/NFL/MLB/MLS cities have ruined it for the rest of us. Calgary can't be the only city out of dozens that doesn't help their pro sports club with a new rink.

Thank said, King is being a dink about this whole thing and bring in the Bettman to try influence the election was tasteless.

[Flash Walken]

I find it utterly fascinating how aggressively disingenuous you are in this discussion, New Era.

You are often found trying to coax nuance in the off topic threads yet on this subject you resort to the same innaccurate descriptions and substitutions of reality you seem to try to correct.

There are 15 people on council. The city has apparently offered to pay for a third if the costs if an arena as part of a larger scale community revitalization. The city has spent millions of dollars at this point researching, reviewing and revising various proposals and have come to the table with a more significant, well planned, COSTED, proposal.

You look like an embarrassing hyper partisan with the kind of simple minded rhetoric presented above.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

This is purely a tactic by the Flames as a result of terrible negotiations from both sides.

The Flames aren't going anywhere. It's a waiting game between the Dome collapsing and Nenshi leaving. My money is on the latter. Hopefully he gets voted out this election.

I simply don't think he's capable of negotiating a deal and getting the job done. He's repeatedly hurt business and his arrogance makes him tough to reason with. You have to be extremely arrogant to refuse to apologize at the expense of tax payers over something so stupid (Wenzel fiasco).

If Bill Smith gets elected, both parties can renew negotiations with good faith. If Nenshi wins again, it's going to take at least 4 more years. But overall I can't see the Flames leaving unless the NHL strongly subsidized a move. The economics don't make sense for ownership.

There is NO effing chance Bill Smith will oust Nenshi. Keep living the dream. Like the Flames owners, Ken King and Gary Bettman. Who knew hating Nenshi would make one lose serious IQ points?!

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Be thankful someone is asking tough questions and trying to get a respectable deal for taxpayers. I'm not the biggest Nenshi fan but I'm certainly glad we aren't bending over and taking it like Edmonton did with Katz.

I am not thankful that an megalomaniac politician is telling me what HIS vision is and what it is going to look like...I am not the least bit interested in what the hell His legacy is going to be. And do not once think that he has the best interest of Calgary, at this point the interest is purely himself. He will say different, he will pander...because that is what he has been training himself his entire life to do.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I like what Jay Random had to say in this thread.

Subsidizing arenas for billionaire owners is bad. There's no economic benefit for the taxpayer, and all we get in return is higher ticket prices and less bang for our entertainment budget buck. Billionaires should be able to fund their own rinks.

However, almost all other billionaire owners have, in one way or the other, received money from the public coffer for their arena or stadium. It's impossible for the Flames to pay their staff (salary floor) if they are completely 100% privately funded when their competitor franchises are publicly subsidized.

It sucks, but if you like NHL hockey, public money is going to the rink in some form or another because all other NHL/NFL/MLB/MLS cities have ruined it for the rest of us. Calgary can't be the only city out of dozens that doesn't help their pro sports club with a new rink.

Thank said, King is being a dink about this whole thing and bring in the Bettman to try influence the election was tasteless.

If anything is clear, Ken King is a puppet in this entire fiasco. I dislike the guy as he comes across as a cigar smoking yes-man that thinks he's better than everyone else. The owners are the ones to blame in this fiasco as they could be taking a high road by being open and at least acting like they are genuinely appreciative that the public MIGHT help them out.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Except there is tangible value, direct economic and indirect. The question is, how much (or perhaps how little is a better way to put it) - but certainly value. The argument that there is zero value is every bit as bad as the ones suggesting there is significant value.
We've had one zero value guy who keeps telling people who assign more than zero value are stupid put into timeout today. That helps

Can you provide some evidence there is some value? This study suggested it was a negative value:

Economists say the biggest reason sports teams don’t have much impact is that they don’t tend to spur new spending. Most people have a limited entertainment budget, so the dollars they are spending when they go to a game is money they would have spent elsewhere, maybe even at a restaurant or small businesses where more money would have stayed in the community. Plus, Matheson says, rather than draw people to a neighborhood, games can actually repel them.

“Sporting events can cause significant crowds and congestion that can cause people to stop going to other events in the area,” he says.

That’s part of the reason why a 2003 analysis on Staples Center commissioned by the Los Angeles City Controller included a surprising finding.

“Economic activity in Inglewood actually increased when the Lakers left town,” says Matheson.

That is, sales tax revenue went up when the Lakers and Kings moved to Staples Center in 1999.

https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/...winners-cities

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

Up until a few weeks ago, the issue was that Garth Brooks wouldn't come here, so there's been progress.

Making things up does not help your position. Garth Brooks is one of the few artists they've had little trouble bringing in. Even in 2012 when he wasn't actively touring.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Dentoman

I would tend to lean on the side of the Flames in this discussion, probably for selfish reasons (season ticket holder) and my growing dislike for Nenshi's inability to control his ego and his mouth. I think we would not be at this point if Nenshi could have just controlled himself and not have been so inflammatory in his comments. The owners don't strike me as the type of men who would take kindly to being berated in public as they have been.

Love them or hate them, it is obvious that King and Bettman don't give a rat's ass what people think of them ..... they will go down fighting for the guys who sign their paycheques, admirable in a way and infuriating in another.

In the end, this deal will get done, but enjoy the ride until we get there.

When has Nenshi berated Murray Edwards in public? Or Clay Riddell? Or Markin? Or any of them? Pissed on the grave of Harley Hotchkiss?

The Flames' conduct through this arena negotiation has been laughable. We should have a new facility six months into construction, and we don't because Ken King and his crew have been incompetent.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'm on side with this and totally agree. I think there is some public benefit to having the team even if it not measurable like "civic pride" but not everything needs to be functional. The peace bridge is amazing but we could have build a bridge for half the cost but sometimes it's fun to have nice things.

Yes, this is the point I was trying (rather obliquely) to make. The question, for me, is what is a reasonable amount to spend on those intangible benefits in this case? For me, anything over 1/3 quite suddenly feels unreasonable and frankly unfair. Of course this is on top of any infrastructure investments that the City may make as well.

[Robbob]

It always intrigues me reading these arena threads as everything is cranked to 11. This process for the arena was always going to be a bloodbath and the fact both parties are going to the media is another valley in the decussions. The annoying thing for the next little bit is each side is going to twist and manipulate facts or talking points to rally their respective sides. Happened after calgarynext and will probably happen again. The whole fake rage/soapbox standing social media/Internet is just part of the process now as sides try to rally support for leverage.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Redlan

I am not thankful that an megalomaniac politician is telling me what HIS vision is and what it is going to look like...I am not the least bit interested in what the hell His legacy is going to be. And do not once think that he has the best interest of Calgary, at this point the interest is purely himself. He will say different, he will pander...because that is what he has been training himself his entire life to do.

Well unfortunately for you, this is what the role of a Mayor has been, is and always will be. Deal with it.

The perplexity in your stance is that you're totally behind a bunch of megalomaniac billionaire owners to hold a city hostage for their own financial gain with no care for the city beyond selling tickets and improving their own net worth but for some reason, you have an extreme distaste for someone who is by definition working for the city and taxpayers.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Provincial municipal and Federal funding.

Did the flames or NHL contribute at all?

Edit:NM already answered

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Two cents;

Many studies and positions on the economic viability of an arena/stadium to a city. To me, only one thing matters - the fact that every major city in North America strive to have one.

I don't like how CSEC is using the election to elevate the issue, especially the bringing in of Bettman as a fear monger. Very Russian of them

I don't like how Nenshi has handled this. He's being too arrogant.

Both sides need to be better. Cripes, if the city is serious about an Olympic bid, they should be working together on positioning themselves for provincial and federal money ala the Saddledome.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Redlan

I am not thankful that an megalomaniac politician is telling me what HIS vision is and what it is going to look like...I am not the least bit interested in what the hell His legacy is going to be. And do not once think that he has the best interest of Calgary, at this point the interest is purely himself. He will say different, he will pander...because that is what he has been training himself his entire life to do.

Would rather a mayor who can work the microphone (his job) and do it with confidence in his political positions than some sheepish, stuttering face turner who can be bought by private interests and apologizes to everyone on behalf of everyone. That's how anemic governments come about.

The mayor has to step in front of the camera - because it's his job.

The interesting thing is that Bill Smith or any other mayoral candidates can't exactly come out and do anything differently - the optics are so great on this that being in the Flames pocket means you can't just throw money at the problem; you have to take a rather staunch conservative standpoint on arena funding, meaning whether it's Nenshi, Smith, or someone else, all candidates may come at it from a taxpayer advantage angle.

That said, we do need Council - and CSEC - to go into negotiations with mutual gains bargaining in mind, meaning that everyone can have their slice of the pie. This can't be zero-sum.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Making things up does not help your position. Garth Brooks is one of the few artists they've had little trouble bringing in. Even in 2012 when he wasn't actively touring.

Which makes all the talk about how much economic activity the Garth Brooks concerts generated for Edmonton to justify a new area here all the more ridiculous.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Redlan

I am not thankful that an megalomaniac politician is telling me what HIS vision is and what it is going to look like...I am not the least bit interested in what the hell His legacy is going to be. And do not once think that he has the best interest of Calgary, at this point the interest is purely himself. He will say different, he will pander...because that is what he has been training himself his entire life to do.

Wow. Not sure what Nenshi has done to generate this type of cynicism.

Anyway, he was re-elected with an overwhelming mandate by your fellow citizens. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with him or like him, but it does make his vision for the city rather relevant.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ice_Weasel

Its too simple to just throw out an absolute figure. It has to be in the context of what the flames are contributing and relative to the total cost of the project. But I do see the Calgary flames relationship with the City as a partnership with mutual benefit and as such there should be some sharing. Similar question to you....do you think the Flames add zero value to the City of Calgary?

I believe the flames add value to the city and are an amenity that should be valued in a city of this size. I am pro some number as well.

It's not 850/450 like Calgary next.

I'm certainly okay with the city owning the building so taxes are paid by the flames on the property value, and even some sort of land contribution to the deal. As well the backstopping the ticket tax. Id also be okay with a portion of a CRL going toward it provided as a whole the CRL could cover all of the infrastructure required in the whole development (unlike CalgaryNext).

So yes there is a number and a structure I would be comfortable with. And without details it appears Nenshis proposal is closer than the CalgaryNext proposal.

Also the flames approach of blackmail while effective is distasteful so I do hope we get full ego Nenshi standing up to them.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Making things up does not help your position. Garth Brooks is one of the few artists they've had little trouble bringing in. Even in 2012 when he wasn't actively touring.

He also built a new rig, or massively adjusted his outdoor one, so it would fit. Not every artist is going to do that. I would say NO other artist has ever done that but I don't pay that close of attention.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by DJones

It'll be interesting to see what everyone's opinion would be when the team leaves. The only time I come to Calgary is hockey games and occasionally the Zoo so obviously I'm biased. Why anyone over 25 would ever go downtown besides work blows my mind haha.

I don't think it'll come to that though, the city will crack. They always do. Even if they "win" all they are left with is a building to demolish with nothing to build.

I lived in Winnipeg when the Jets left. It wasn't as bad as you'd think and was probably a positive for the city in the long run.