A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[Sr. Mints]

Originally Posted by Locke

The real question is that even though Mellisandre left Jon in a bad way, she is trusted by Dany, all she needed to say was:

"Yeah, I gotta go because I burned a small child at the stake, mea culpa on that one. But before I go, I revived Jon Snow from the dead, so theres that, but also the Army of the Dead and the Night King are totally real things, so while he might sound like a raving lunatic hes totally not. Fair warning."

Few things bugged me, but Mellisandre's departure felt really contrived.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Euron stuff is pretty stupid.

They explained Casterly Rock, it was the seat of the Lannisters. Losing it, at least Tyrion thought, would have been a morale crushing move on those still loyal to Cersei. Being unable to hold onto your ancestral seat is looked poorly upon. It was the same when the Starks lost Winterfell. And the Unsullied didn't have anything better to do because they didn't want them part of the siege on King's landing.

We had quite the focus on the last episode about Tarly wavering on his loyalties. He's the military commander of the Highgarden army...He was shown to be with Jaime when they marched towards Highgarden. The same people that would have been expected to protect Highgarden were storming it, that's why it was easy.

Varys not picking up on this makes him quite useless to Daenaerys at this point, but again, we've seen that his "little birds" are now with Qyburn. Sure, you would hope that Varys/Daenaerys had enough resources to know where armies were heading but right now it was a single army that was made up a lot of people from the Reach, so them being in the Reach would not have been much of a surprise.

[Sr. Mints]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It happens to every show. Mad Men and The Sopranos are two that come to mind. First they were critic darlings, then they were the "you have to watch this" show and then when they were on top it became cool to slag them all the time and talk about how they used to be good. Same basic trajectory most musical acts go through. .

Sometimes groundbreaking seasons that push a show to the top just set expectations that aren't realistic.

Wandering a bit . . .

For me, it's kind of the same thing when it comes to novels (and I read a lot!)

Just about every single book I've read has flatlined toward the end - even books I found to be terrific.

There's only one book I can think of that had 'the perfect ending' (Franzen's Freedom) - most feel rushed, unsatisfying, too long and drawn out, the author has no idea what to do with these characters, etc., etc.

It's my most common complaint: that ending sucked.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Riverrun is supposed to be one of the most impenetrable keeps in westeros, or so they keep saying in the show. If you played any amount of Civ you would know that having water on 3 sides makes it almost impossible to siege a city effectively.

Also, the battle of blackwater came down to manpower. Stannis almost took King's landing with a depleted force thanks to the wildfire. Without that wildfire advantage, everyone knew that King's Landing was ####ed. It wasn't going to be a long siege of the city, it was going to be a slaughter as Stannis' army would easily penetrate the walls and invade the city/castle. It wasn't that the soldiers from high garden were such badasses, it was that instead of not being involved, they picked a side.

Also, in the preceding episode, Cersei is the one convincing the other lords of the reach to rebel against house Tyrell. WHen you see Jamie riding up with the columns of the army, Randall Tarly is there in the background, indicating that this was not the Reach defending against the Lannisters, it was ONLY house Tyrell resisting the siege. Combined with their lack of military might, that would've been enough to ensure things were swift and brutal for Tyrells.

The show is definitely over-relying on travel time and geography to push the story in one direction.

The Dornish and the Tyrell's are totally unable to coordinate their military forces due to geography and lack of ships. Moving Dornish soldiers from Dorne to the Reach just isn't possible without the Iron Borne transports. Yet, the Lannister and Euron forces seemingly can be everywhere at once.

Also the unsullied would have had to pass around Dorne and past the reach in order to get from Dragonstone to Casterly Rock. Dragonstone and Casterly Rock are about as far as you can get from eachother by boat in Westeros.

Anyways....it is disappointing that they are simultaneously doing away with geographical and time restraints while making them crucial to the unfolding of the plot.

[Azure]

I think they're doing good with what they have left.

Still confused why they are rushing it though. Considering how much interest & money the show is generating for HBO, why couldn't they add another season?

[RatherDashing]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Euron stuff is pretty stupid.

I don't think the Euron timeline is really off at all, he would have left for Casterly Rock around the same time as the Unsullied ships, and it's a long distance from King's Landing/Dragonstone. Why wouldn't he get there around the same time as them?

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think they're doing good with what they have left.

Still confused why they are rushing it though. Considering how much interest & money the show is generating for HBO, why couldn't they add another season?

There's not that much story left to tell.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by RatherDashing

I don't think the Euron timeline is really off at all, he would have left for Casterly Rock around the same time as the Unsullied ships, and it's a long distance from King's Landing/Dragonstone. Why wouldn't he get there around the same time as them?

And plus, Euron's side sails gives his fleet a combined +200% speed bonus.

[sureLoss]

Watch out for spoilers this week!

Hackers apparently hacked HBO and in the data they got what appears to be the script for next week's episode:
http://gizmodo.com/someone-hacked-in...-th-1797397619

[Roof-Daddy]

So Euron has what..? 1000 ships supposedly?

And Dany has (had) about 350 or so?

His fleet could easily have been spread out and/or divided into different groups that are in different locations and still out number Dany's ships no matter where they might meet.

Say he has 500 on the east side on 500 on the west side. He would easily have Dany's entire fleet outnumbered in both seas battles so far, because neither battle would have had the entirety of Dany's fleet involved.

Say 500 to 100-150 in the battle where the sand snakes were taken, and roughly the same in the battle that just happened where the unsullied were left stranded at Casterly Rock.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

My main critique is that this is all very slapdash and thrown together. I would accept all these rationalizations for how easily Highgarden fell, or for how Euron is everywhere at once, or for why Casterly Rock is a good idea if there was screen time spent fleshing these major plot points out. But there isn't, so we're just sitting around desperately holding on to the idea that the primary storyline isn't degrading into an absolute mess by coming up with our own rationalizations for why everything appears to be so stupid.

That's not good story telling. It's lazy, rushed, and betrays the earlier masterpiece of the show.

The show runners are clearly struggling at writing the show on their own merit.

I feel like we're witnessing Walking Dead season 2 here.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

So Euron has what..? 1000 ships supposedly?

And Dany has (had) about 350 or so?

His fleet could easily have been spread out and/or divided into different groups that are in different locations and still out number Dany's ships no matter where they might meet.

Say he has 500 on the east side on 500 on the west side. He would easily have Dany's entire fleet outnumbered in both seas battles so far, because neither battle would have had the entirety of Dany's fleet involved.

Say 500 to 100-150 in the battle where the sand snakes were taken, and roughly the same in the battle that just happened where the unsullied were left stranded at Casterly Rock.

All true, but they did make a point of showing Euron's flagship at the battle off Casterly Rock too. He must have borrowed Littlefinger's helicopter from seasons prior and upgraded it to lift his ship.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The show runners are clearly struggling at writing the show on their own merit.

I feel like we're witnessing Walking Dead season 2 here.

Ok well the show runners don't write every episode. And they've done a fine job guiding the show for 6 previous seasons, much of which was not a direct book translation. Plus Martin has been involved and they are on record saying he provided guidance for the ending.


As for the timeline stuff, it's kinda funny to see people intentionally pick stuff apart that can be easily explained by necessary storytelling and editing techniques.

Grey worm left quite a bit before Jaime did for Casterly Rock on the show. But if Jaime left two episodes ago, it would've ruined the entire set up for that story.

So maybe the events on the show happen at different times, even though they are shown consecutively. Some scenes that are shown in the same episode could happen weeks, or even months apart, even if they appear to be happening concurrently.

Showing everything in it's true in-world time sequence would make the show insanely confusing and ruin a ton of plot points.

Are some things still inaccurate? Sure, but who cares? It is artistic liberty for the purposes of moving the plot. It would serve no purpose, except to satisfy pedantic complaints.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The show runners are clearly struggling at writing the show on their own merit.

I feel like we're witnessing Walking Dead season 2 here.

Woaa, easy now.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Watch out for spoilers this week!

Hackers apparently hacked HBO and in the data they got what appears to be the script for next week's episode:
http://gizmodo.com/someone-hacked-in...-th-1797397619

I can't wait for peoples "predictions".

[Igottago]

The current pacing is a bit jarring, but they need the major chess pieces to move now. They spent so much time with widespread and in depth character development previously in the show (which was amazing) that they forgot to advance the overall plot forward at times. Looking back I think they wasted a little too much screen time on certain things, like some of the Dorne and Daenerys plot lines...but I just think it is what it is now, they have to finally get the main plots lines moving.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by RatherDashing

I don't think the Euron timeline is really off at all, he would have left for Casterly Rock around the same time as the Unsullied ships, and it's a long distance from King's Landing/Dragonstone. Why wouldn't he get there around the same time as them?

Well for one, that only really works if Euron, after attacking and parading the sand snakes and Yara around King's Landing, didn't have to do any travelling on land. That would require his fleet to be in Blackwater Bay. Moving a fleet of 1000 ships out of Blackwater Bay without being noticed by someone holding down Dragonstone doesn't quite add up, especially when the dragons are roaming around. You pretty much have to go within a couple dozen of kilometres of Dragonstone to get your fleet out of Blackwater Bay. It suggests Daenaerys is completely blind on Dragonstone, when that shouldn't be the case.

To sneak up on Yara's fleet, sneak out of Blackwater Bay, pass by Dorne (and no one communicating it to Daenaerys) and then sneak up on the Unsullied army (while Daenaerys knows of the fleet now) only really works if the fleet is invisible.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Well for one, that only really works if Euron, after attacking and parading the sand snakes and Yara around King's Landing, didn't have to do any travelling on land. That would require his fleet to be in Blackwater Bay. Moving a fleet of 1000 ships out of Blackwater Bay without being noticed by someone holding down Dragonstone doesn't quite add up, especially when the dragons are roaming around. You pretty much have to go within a couple dozen of kilometres of Dragonstone to get your fleet out of Blackwater Bay. It suggests Daenaerys is completely blind on Dragonstone, when that shouldn't be the case.

To sneak up on Yara's fleet, sneak out of Blackwater Bay, pass by Dorne (and no one communicating it to Daenaerys) and then sneak up on the Unsullied army (while Daenaerys knows of the fleet now) only really works if the fleet is invisible.

Tyrion's whole plan didn't really work with the geography. Dragonstone is very close to King's Landing. Casterly Rock is clear on the other side of the island. You have to travel around Dorne and the Reach to get to Casterly Rock.

If the Lannisters are capable of marching an army across land so quickly to reach Highgarden, why wouldn't the Tyrell's just transport their army via land too. It would make a lot more sense just to strike at King's Landing and have the Tyrell's meet them at King's Landing to give them the local appearance, they were looking for.

If you look at the geography, the whole thing is pretty absurd. King's Landing is just too close to Dragonstone and too far, by sea, from the other key points to make any of this make sense.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Ok well the show runners don't write every episode. And they've done a fine job guiding the show for 6 previous seasons, much of which was not a direct book translation. Plus Martin has been involved and they are on record saying he provided guidance for the ending.

Except they wrote this specific episode.

Are some things still inaccurate? Sure, but who cares? It is artistic liberty for the purposes of moving the plot. It would serve no purpose, except to satisfy pedantic complaints.

I hate this critique of other peoples' critiques. "Sure it's bad but just ignore it!"

It's bad. It draws away from the show and perverts the narrative with an anything can happen bent. It erodes at the structure that makes the story so great. Characters doing stupid things makes you question the stakes in the whole affair which then dulls the emotional appeal and the motivations of the characters.

Lets walk through this. Cersei knows Dany is on Dragonstone with 3 dragons and a huge army and wants to take back Westeros. So what does she do? She splits her forces up to take Highgarden while Dany splits her forces up to take a symbolic castle with no strategic gain.

Now maybe we can all explain this because Varys is feeding Cersei all the info on Dany's plans. Sure that's plausible. But there's no screen time to create the mystery or punctuate the motivations of the major characters and their actions. Instead we get a mess, a total mess that makes no sense from a strategic or motivational perspective.

So no, I can't just ignore it and it's not being pedantic. It's about good story telling vs. bad story telling. If you want to ignore it fine, that doesn't mean that someone like myself wouldn't have meaningful criticisms of how the show is unravelling.

[PsYcNeT]

Really, I'm just giving a free-pass to all the Westeros war drama baloney so they can hurry the #### up and have winter come and MASS ZOMBIE WAR MAYHEM which is really why I've watched for 7 years anyway.

If that makes me a pleb, so be it.