[News] Pronman ranks top U-23 players

[Monahammer]

https://theathletic.com/3060357/2022...r-jack-hughes/

Flames not coming out so good here.

Highest flame: Dustin Wolf at 50
66. Coronato; calls out mediocre production this season on deep harvard team.
95. Adam Ruzicka; poor skating but average elsewhere
99. Pelletier; seems like his production is not impressive enough? Pronman thinks his puck skills are below average
108. Zary; below average skating again

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

https://theathletic.com/3060357/2022...r-jack-hughes/

Flames not coming out so good here.

Highest flame: Dustin Wolf at 50
66. Coronato; calls out mediocre production this season on deep harvard team.
95. Adam Ruzicka; poor skating but average elsewhere
99. Pelletier; seems like his production is not impressive enough? Pronman thinks his puck skills are below average
108. Zary; below average skating again

interesting- not sure what to make of this- with no recent high picks or impact U23s on the roster its maybe not that surprising that we don't have any in the top 25-30, but I suppose a half full person might observe that 5 in top 108 is not bad in the depth /2nd tier department?

[Mass_nerder]

12 points in 12 games as a freshman doesn't seem like mediocre production. I don't really have any context for understanding numbers in college hockey though. Maybe that is middling.

[SuperMatt18]

PPG for a freshman is usually pretty good...not sure how it's considered middling.

Here are the U-20 Freshman (1st year) scoring leaders in the NCAA:

1) Josh Doan: 25 points, 1.0 PPG
2) Matthew Knies: 20 points, 1.0 PPG
3) Carter Mazur: 18 points, 1.0 PPG
4) Matthew Coronato: 12 points, 1.0 PPG
5) Chaz Lucius: 12 points, 0.86 PPG

So yeah Pronmon is a bit out to lunch in calling it middling performance. The biggest issue here is that Harvard has only played 12 games, so he's just not playing enough hockey.

[DeluxeMoustache]

When you look back at Pronman’s similar lists over time, how have they aged?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by looooob

interesting- not sure what to make of this- with no recent high picks or impact U23s on the roster its maybe not that surprising that we don't have any in the top 25-30, but I suppose a half full person might observe that 5 in top 108 is not bad in the depth /2nd tier department?

Yup.

With equal distribution you'd expect to have 3 players in the top 96, so having 5 in the top 108 actually is pretty good overall.

And we haven't drafted top 10 in the last 5 drafts...so probably shouldn't expect to have any of the top 20-30 just based on that alone.

Also Pronman tends to have his own bias and if he's not a fan of a guy from their draft year it can be hard for them to climb up the charts. Honestly I'm not sure there is a way to justify Ruzicka being higher than Pelletier, when Pelletier has been an immediate play driver in the AHL at 20. Where it took Ruzicka some time to become a strong AHLer.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by looooob

interesting- not sure what to make of this- with no recent high picks or impact U23s on the roster its maybe not that surprising that we don't have any in the top 25-30, but I suppose a half full person might observe that 5 in top 108 is not bad in the depth /2nd tier department?

Agreed, not terrible I suppose, and Wolf is one of the top ranked Goalies (2nd I think, behind Wallstedt).

I was hoping Pelletier's AHL production would boost him up the rankings, but if we take Pronman as somewhat indicative of what other teams scouting departments think of our U-23 crop, it would explain why we are not getting a huge amount of excitement with trade offers.

I wonder where Valimaki would rank if he was a bit younger.

[genetic_phreek]

Interesting that he says Ruzicka has poor skating. His mechanics aren't smooth but he moves pretty swift for a big man.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

PPG for a freshman is usually pretty good...not sure how it's considered middling.

Here are the U-20 Freshman (1st year) scoring leaders in the NCAA:

1) Josh Doan: 25 points, 1.0 PPG
2) Matthew Knies: 20 points, 1.0 PPG
3) Carter Mazur: 18 points, 1.0 PPG
4) Matthew Coronato: 12 points, 1.0 PPG
5) Chaz Lucius: 12 points, 0.86 PPG

So yeah Pronmon is a bit out to lunch in calling it middling performance. The biggest issue here is that Harvard has only played 12 games, so he's just not playing enough hockey.

To be honest, I don't really see Doan, Knies or Mazur as more than maybe 3rd liners at most in the NHL so it's probably not good that Coronato has comparable stats.

But I also think it's a case by case thing. I recall Johnny was also PPG as a freshman and then really exploded in year 2. Maybe we just gotta hope Coronato follows a similar trajectory.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

When you look back at Pronman’s similar lists over time, how have they aged?

I haven't done a thorough review but it is about what you would expect. Some right some wrong. I will say this much for Pronman, when he is wrong he is up front about it. He was super high on Bouchard and Broberg, but backed off after their first pro year, calling out their skating.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

When you look back at Pronman’s similar lists over time, how have they aged?

Like he pulled names from a hat to determine order.

Guy has always had some "I just know better" picks that he will double and triple down on over time as he is proven wrong.

Up until like a year and a half ago, he was adamant Casey Middlestadt was going to be the best player in his draft class... As every player around him was very obviously better.

[Boreal]

Why does anyone pay attention to this clown?

If he actually knew anything he would at least have been hired by an NHL team at one point in any capacity.

He hasn’t because he knows nothing more than any other fan. I almost snorted when he commented on Pelletier’s puck skills. Huh?

He also uses the caveat of “I rank based on STAR potential” as a back door excuse to cover his nonsense.

In 2018 he rated the Flames prospects 29th

That list include a top 5 of…
1. Kylington
2. Valimaki
3. Mangiapane
4. Andersson
5. Dube

Uhhhhh… ok.

That looks like nowhere near 29th in hindsight.

He classified all 5 as “legit NHL prospects” while labelling the Yamamoto & Bouchard as “very good NHL prospects.”

Ok!

https://theathletic.com/433940/2018/...shared_article

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

When you look back at Pronman’s similar lists over time, how have they aged?

I haven't done that, but Pronman does have a type. He likes very skilled players.

And hey - he's got Corranto ahead of Cole Caufield (79)

He had Pelletier at 174 in September - so he's jumped a lot.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

To be honest, I don't really see Doan, Knies or Mazur as more than maybe 3rd liners at most in the NHL so it's probably not good that Coronato has comparable stats.

But I also think it's a case by case thing. I recall Johnny was also PPG as a freshman and then really exploded in year 2. Maybe we just gotta hope Coronato follows a similar trajectory.

It's 100% a case by case thing. But the thing is more that PPG is generally good for a 1st year NCAA player, so to call it middling is just false.

Look at other 1st round forwards to come out of the NCAA recently that played their draft+1 season in the NCAA.

Mittelstadt: 30 points in 34 games
Norris: 23 points in 37 games
Wahlstrom: 19 points in 36 games
Farabee: 36 points in 37 games
Turcotte: 26 points in 29 games
Zegras: 36 points in 33 games
Boldy: 26 points in 34 games
Caufield: 36 points in 36 games
Holloway: 35 points in 23 games (2nd NCAA season, had 17 points in 35 games year 1)
Brisson: 21 points in 24 games

PPG for a 1st round pick playing their first year in the NCAA is pretty much the top end of expected production.

[Naitix]

Super biased ranking based on draft position, Byfield should not be anywhere near 21st, he's been trash ever since he was drafted - in the AHL and at WJC

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Naitix

Super biased ranking based on draft position, Byfield should not be anywhere near 21st, he's been trash ever since he was drafted - in the AHL and at WJC

Byfield, a very young player to be drafted in 2020, had 20 points in the AHL as an 18 year old and 1 point in 6 games in the NHL. This year in the AHL he has only played 8 games.

Your take is wrong, or at least isn't taking into consideration his age/where he played/how COVID has disrupted Jr./AHL hockey. To say he's been trash is just...a trash take.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's also a projection of future value, not a matter of who's the best today. Otherwise Heiskanen would probably be #1. Frankly he should still be top 5.

[djsFlames]

Pronman is either just a tougher grader toward the Flames or hasn't watched enough of the the Flames prospects to appreciate guys like pelletier (who is full marks for his season) and consistently ranks their prospects below where they probably should be.

About as meaningful of that top 100 nhl skaters list that didn't include Johnny in the 100 or honorable mentions.

Nothing to see here.

[albertGQ]

Is Wolf ranked higher than Cossa?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

Is Wolf ranked higher than Cossa?

Yes. He has Cossa down in the 120's.