[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Sure - what am I missing? Are you saying our core is active, or that the area around Marlborough is equally dead?

I can tell you the last time I was in the Marlborough area for dinner (and drove a while to get there), but I have no idea when I was last in the core in the evening except for a hockey game.

I'm not proclaiming to be an expert with a civil engineering degree or anything here guys, just giving my thoughts/opinions... I'm willing to change my mind if something gets pointed out that I'm missing.

An Olive Garden and we'd have a world class downtown!

[BurningSteel]

Build it outside the core, tie it into the new train station they want to build that connects to banff to profit off that parking etc.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

"the city should not give billionaires a dime! also, don't you dare build it more than 10 mins from my doorstep or else!"

people said the balzac mall would be a ghost town when it was built...now you can't find parking on a weekend

If CSEC thinks these remote areas are viable and low risk, they would be looking at them. At no point have those been seriously considered. When Ken King presented CalgaryNEXT he was pretty adamant that it needed to be downtown.

So, we are not demanding it be downtown, but the suggestion that it not be downtown is largely illogical

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Grey Eagle is - what - 5 minutes from Chinook Centre/MacLeod Trail? And you don't think the other amenities would spring up in the area in the time it would take the build the arena??

Really the only downside to building there would be no C-Train... and don't get me wrong - I consider that quite significant. But the lands over there should not be discarded out of hand... and I think the Tsuu T'ina Nation would consider getting that development quite the feather in their cap, so they would be eager to help out in any way.

Grey Eagle is 5 minutes from Chinook in the same world that Airdrie is 15 minutes from downtown.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Cappy

If CSEC thinks these remote areas are viable and low risk, they would be looking at them. At no point have those been seriously considered. When Ken King presented CalgaryNEXT he was pretty adamant that it needed to be downtown.

So, we are not demanding it be downtown, but the suggestion that it not be downtown is largely illogical

with things falling apart twice he might have changed his mind

also, things are changing...people don't need to work downtown like in Kings day

[getbak]

Realistically, the only area outside of downtown that would make any sense for an alternate location is Fire Park. It's a massive piece of land so they could build something like CalgaryNext and still have plenty of room left over for a full-blown entertainment district with restaurants and bars, probably a movie theatre, and hotels. It's adjacent to an existing C-Train station and two high-volume roads and close to Deerfoot and 16th Ave.

A development similar to what they did at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa could possibly work in that area. It's about the same size as Lansdowne. The only downside is that Lansdowne was already in a well-established neighbourhood and Fire Park would be on its own.

----------


Although, really, it's kind of pointless to talk about. The Flames didn't pull out of the deal because of the location or the design of the building or anything like that. It's all about money and an alternate location isn't likely to change that equation.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

An Olive Garden and we'd have a world class downtown!

lol... not quite, though tbh more than one of those in the city wouldn't hurt. My kids love that as their birthday dinner (thus why I can tell you when I are in the area). I'm not denying that, and equally not saying that's what makes that area great... no offense to anyone or any generalizations, but I've never been a NE Calgary guy.

I've lived in more metropolitan places (in the US), though over 80% of my life has been in and around Calgary. I don't see a legitimate road to make downtown Calgary "world class". Maybe there is a path that can become that road in 20-30 years, but it would take someone better than me to see it. And yes, an arena in the area would be a positive move in that direction.

So, to loop back to the actual topic of the thread, hopefully CSEC and CoC can work together to make that happen... and if not, hopefully one of them can make it happen independent of the other and it works out.

Calgary needs both the Flames and a new Event Center... just wish they'd stop playing chicken with each other and get it done.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Torture

Grey Eagle is 5 minutes from Chinook in the same world that Airdrie is 15 minutes from downtown.

Just because my claim was questioned, I just did the drive over lunch (quiet day at the office).

From MacLeod when the light turned green turning left onto Glenmore to Glenmore/37th was 7 minutes... so yes, I was off by 2 minutes. I'm not directing that at you Torture, but some people are making this sounds a gross exaggeration or something!!!

And yes, not into the Grey Eagle parking lot either, just the intersection.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I've been going to hockey games long enough to know that there is a volume increase, yes. But saying it is like rush hour is overstating it. Going to hockey games on Saturdays is never like trying to get out of or into the core at 5 on a weekday.

Again though, I have said more than once that the lack of a C-train route (or alternative I suppose?) is what I consider the major drawback.

As to the revenue question, that would be up to Tsuu T'ina to determine if there was an option to entire the Flames better than their previous option. Again, think of all the potential development with restaurants/etc that one would expect to have happen if the arena was going there. They would be generating a bunch more income that they could use to try and influence the Flames if they chose to go down that road.

Also, I wonder how the city would feel about a new event center being build outside the city limits? Would that be a problem or get them off the hook for having to build one??

Look, I'm not saying it is easy, or that it is good, or that it should happen... but I just get frustrated at everyone deciding it should be eliminated as an option because there are issues.

How is it overstating it? Try driving on any of the roads in/out of the Stampede grounds during a hockey game in normal times. It's like driving in rush hour (when I was in Calgary I chose to cycle or walk from Inglewood). Tsuu T'ina aren't going to just give CSEC land for free (which the city was doing in effect). CSEC don't want to own the building, they just want to run it and control all the revenue.

If you look back at CalgaryNext that was a play for CSEC to become a real estate organization. Doing this with Tsuu T'ina would then only really benefit them as the developer and once again, this isn't palatable to CSEC.

I'll give credit to CSEC, they want to be more than an entertainment organization. That's great, I just think they should do it with their own money instead of someone elses.

[dino7c]

Kipper lived in Balzac and he made it to the games, you guys could manage the other way around!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Just because my claim was questioned, I just did the drive over lunch (quiet day at the office).

From MacLeod when the light turned green turning left onto Glenmore to Glenmore/37th was 7 minutes... so yes, I was off by 2 minutes. I'm not directing that at you Torture, but some people are making this sounds a gross exaggeration or something!!!

And yes, not into the Grey Eagle parking lot either, just the intersection.

Depends on the time of day - that Glenmore is congested from Sarcee to Macleod. Plus, I don’t think any arena would be near Grey Eagle. Their current development plans are where their arena is now, as well as the Costco.

There are also no LRT or other main transit lines onto the reserve.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by getbak

Realistically, the only area outside of downtown that would make any sense for an alternate location is Fire Park. It's a massive piece of land so they could build something like CalgaryNext and still have plenty of room left over for a full-blown entertainment district with restaurants and bars, probably a movie theatre, and hotels. It's adjacent to an existing C-Train station and two high-volume roads and close to Deerfoot and 16th Ave.

A development similar to what they did at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa could possibly work in that area. It's about the same size as Lansdowne. The only downside is that Lansdowne was already in a well-established neighbourhood and Fire Park would be on its own.

----------


Although, really, it's kind of pointless to talk about. The Flames didn't pull out of the deal because of the location or the design of the building or anything like that. It's all about money and an alternate location isn't likely to change that equation.

I think the discussion on Firepark is buried somewhere on CP but does that area have reclamation and clean up issues? I seem to recall it is similar to the West Village although not creosote related.

An awesome and iconic option would be if they could take over the Calgary Herald land and surrounding businesses. Build a sweet architectural design up on the hill that can seen every time someone drives down Deerfoot or Memorial.

[Makarov]

I must be missing something... why does the event centre suddenly become much less expensive to build if built at Fire Park, Marlborough Mall, or on the Tsuut'ina reserve? Or why would the Tsuut'ina First Nation give CSEC a better deal than the City has offered? I don't really understand the logic behind any of these proposed alternative locations.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I must be missing something... why does the event centre suddenly become much less expensive to build if built at Fire Park, Marlborough Mall, or on the Tsuut'ina reserve? Or why would the Tsuut'ina First Nation give CSEC a better deal than the City has offered? I don't really understand the logic behind any of these proposed alternative locations.

The location isn't the problem, it's the financing. They won't. It's not logical.

[SuperMatt18]

Google has the official time of travel from Chinook to Grey Eagle as 10 minutes. Saddledome to grey eagle is 20 minutes.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I must be missing something... why does the event centre suddenly become much less expensive to build if built at Fire Park, Marlborough Mall, or on the Tsuut'ina reserve? Or why would the Tsuut'ina First Nation give CSEC a better deal than the City has offered? I don't really understand the logic behind any of these proposed alternative locations.

Agree with you on Fire Park or Marlborough, though as someone else pointed out, maybe you could do a CalgaryNEXT kind of thing in one of those locations, and maybe that changes the boundaries a bit.

As to why Tsuu T'ina? I'm not thinking they would either, but it comes down to a key structure in revitalizing (or building) an area. Maybe an arena going there becomes a cornerstone in a whole development... and that is appealing to them? Again, not a civil engineer, or a money guy, but if it inspires a bunch of development like the city is hoping to get out of East Village, then maybe Tsuu T'ina likes that? AND the possibility of having the new Calgary Event Center on their land might be a feather to them too??

All just maybes really... would take someone way more knowledgeable than me to know if they would want to, but I don't believe it is a 0% chance of it happening (maybe not much higher than that though).

Originally Posted by kermitology

The location isn't the problem, it's the financing. They won't. It's not logical.

You could very well be right... probably are. But that isn't a guarantee. If they chose to, well that opens up something for CSEC to consider. Not sure they would even accept... but it's still a possibility (yes, an unlikely one)

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Google has the official time of travel from Chinook to Grey Eagle as 10 minutes. Saddledome to grey eagle is 20 minutes.

I'd assume if I'd tried to drive into the parking lot, that would be correct...

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Agree with you on Fire Park or Marlborough, though as someone else pointed out, maybe you could do a CalgaryNEXT kind of thing in one of those locations, and maybe that changes the boundaries a bit.

As to why Tsuu T'ina? I'm not thinking they would either, but it comes down to a key structure in revitalizing (or building) an area. Maybe an arena going there becomes a cornerstone in a whole development... and that is appealing to them? Again, not a civil engineer, or a money guy, but if it inspires a bunch of development like the city is hoping to get out of East Village, then maybe Tsuu T'ina likes that? AND the possibility of having the new Calgary Event Center on their land might be a feather to them too??

All just maybes really... would take someone way more knowledgeable than me to know if they would want to, but I don't believe it is a 0% chance of it happening (maybe not much higher than that though).

In order to be more attractive than the City's offer, the First Nation would have to offer some sort of package worth ~$500,000,000 in subsidies to the Flames. Just imagine the scale and value of development that would be required to induce the Tsuut'ina First Nation (a community and organization far, far smaller than the City of Kingston) to take that sort of risk. It would have to forecast billions and billions of dollars of development to make it worthwhile.

I don't see it as even a remote possibility.

[powderjunkie]

The deal is marginal at the *best* possible location, and the land value isn't even factored into it as a contribution from either side. (*proposed site is at least as good as any conceivable spot short of tearing down City Hall).

Tough to see much of a surrounding-development play around Grey Eagle given the proximity of West Hills (and Chinook, Deerfoot Meadows, Macleod Tr, etc.).

One place that would be a little interesting from a functional standpoint (less-so surrounding development) is directly south of WestHills where the city has some operations stuff. Could help justify an LRT spur line (or more likely BRT) to there and MRU and get the Richmond Rd intersection fixed. Of course it would have been more feasible of the SWRR and Glenmore upgrades were done with all of this in mind.

All of these ideas would require far more investment to make functional than what was included in the original deal + the latest red herring costs.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by mdubz

Never even heard of Castanet. Why does it look like the Super Mario logo?

I had never heard of it either, and then today I was in Kamloops and saw a billboard with the same logo. It turns out it services Kamloops, Kelowna, Vernon, Penticton, and other towns/cities in the BC interior.