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Old 01-25-2022, 01:26 AM   #121
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Maybe, but I think it's a very good thing to flat-out suck for a few years to get things set up for the future. The Flames have never wanted to do this, but the teams that have — either by choice or by circumstance — are typically the teams that have gone far.

I think that lack of conviction is the real "complete suck."
meanwhile the Flames have two forwards in their 20s giving 100 points a run for its money while being near to top of the league defensively

You could tank for a decade and not get that
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Old 01-25-2022, 03:10 AM   #122
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Ruzicka showed tonight he's capable of playing up and down a lineup and making an impact. This is why you bring these guys in. They are safer, higher upside bets.

You can put a guy like Ruzicka out there for a shift in the top six and he can make things happen. Brett Ritchie and Brad Richardson can't do that.
Instead we waste 20 he's with Ritchie on the top line
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Old 01-25-2022, 06:13 AM   #123
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The kid is one of three players in Stockton with a point a game in the AHL.

He is NOT Gaudreau by any stretch and he isn't even as big as fricken Yamamotto. Yamamotto is useless at the NHL level. Not buying what Philips fans are selling. I don't see him as an upgrade on Ritchie or Lewis at all. To be sure I could see Gawdin coming up.

If your going to be that small in the NHL you better bring 1-2 line talent no room for a dinky toy on a fourth line.
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Old 01-25-2022, 06:48 AM   #124
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The kid is one of three players in Stockton with a point a game in the AHL.

He is NOT Gaudreau by any stretch and he isn't even as big as fricken Yamamotto. Yamamotto is useless at the NHL level. Not buying what Philips fans are selling. I don't see him as an upgrade on Ritchie or Lewis at all. To be sure I could see Gawdin coming up.

If your going to be that small in the NHL you better bring 1-2 line talent no room for a dinky toy on a fourth line.
Well Matthew Phillips drives play on the Heat's top line. He's also defensively responsible - comfortable in his own end. I'd also argue that he's the most consistent out of the Heat's top line.

Plus, he's quite disciplined. Only Zary and Pettersen have fewer PIMs among regular forwards, and both of these guys have played way fewer games/minutes.

Yamamoto averages 38 points per 82 games in his career so far. I wouldn't call that useless. And I'd blame a lot of his shortcomings on the Oilers' ineptness with development and usage.

I agree that one dimensional, small, skill-only players probably shouldn't be in the bottom 6.
But Phillips is actually one of the more all-around players on the Heat. And there's no reason this "toy" can't play with much larger players and help them produce offense while maintaining possession.
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Old 01-25-2022, 07:00 AM   #125
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Well Matthew Phillips drives play on the Heat's top line. He's also defensively responsible - comfortable in his own end. I'd also argue that he's the most consistent out of the Heat's top line.

Plus, he's quite disciplined. Only Zary and Pettersen have fewer PIMs among regular forwards, and both of these guys have played way fewer games/minutes.

Yamamoto averages 38 points per 82 games in his career so far. I wouldn't call that useless. And I'd blame a lot of his shortcomings on the Oilers' ineptness with development and usage.

I agree that one dimensional, small, skill-only players probably shouldn't be in the bottom 6.
But Phillips is actually one of the more all-around players on the Heat. And there's no reason this "toy" can't play with much larger players and help them produce offense while maintaining possession.
All fair and good points except one. Philips won't be playing with Conner McDavid. He'd be playing with Backlund or Monahan.

Does Yamamotto get .4 pts a game on any other team? And the eye test on him is telling as well. It's a big fast physical league and I'd argue that with McDavid or Draisaitl he should have .6-.7 pts a game.
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Old 01-25-2022, 07:20 AM   #126
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I'd rather see what the dinky toy can do on the fourth line than trot this guy back out there again:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1485907986170073089

The goal of the NHL isn't to be big. It's to score more goals than the other team. And Phillips has done all he can to prove he can score at every level except the NHL, because he hasn't yet been given the chance.

We know Brett Ritchie can't score (or do much of anything else). Tyler Pitlick and Brad Richardson are in the same boat. Even in the 7–1 win over St. Louis, Ritchie's shot differential was somehow only barely in the black. Why is he still in the NHL?
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Old 01-25-2022, 07:28 AM   #127
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Ruzicka didn't impress me. Doesn't think the game at NHL pace.
Same. He has a long way to go, particularly in the Dzone, to gain Sutter's trust. I think 4C is on offer if he can step up. He has more offensive upside over any of the other 4C options.
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Old 01-25-2022, 07:53 AM   #128
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I'd rather see what the dinky toy can do on the fourth line than trot this guy back out there again:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1485907986170073089

The goal of the NHL isn't to be big. It's to score more goals than the other team. And Phillips has done all he can to prove he can score at every level except the NHL, because he hasn't yet been given the chance.

We know Brett Ritchie can't score (or do much of anything else). Tyler Pitlick and Brad Richardson are in the same boat. Even in the 7–1 win over St. Louis, Ritchie's shot differential was somehow only barely in the black. Why is he still in the NHL?
I am not here to defend Ritchie but in what world can Phillips fill his role?

Richie isnt a point producer, but he is sound defensively and is vary hard to play against because of his size and how he uses it. Its a role Darryl Sutter deems essential to make his teams successful. MP cannot do those things..period. It would be a complete waste of his real talent to even try him there. I think that much is obvious.

If he is on the team it has to be in a top 2/offensive line role. Who are you bumping to make room for him while remembering who his coach is?

If (god forbid)a Dube/Mangiapane/Gaudreau go down with injury then sure....call him up and let him have a go at things. Until such an opening exists though, there is no point and would see him watching from the press box which does neither him nor the team any favors.
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Old 01-25-2022, 07:53 AM   #129
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Brett Ritchie xGF% 54.35 HDCF% 58.33
Vlad Ruzicka xGF% 45.04 HDCF% 42.11

Ruzicka deserves some more playing time based on last game but I'm not on the let's run Ritchie out of town train.
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Old 01-25-2022, 07:55 AM   #130
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Ritchie isn't sound defensively... at all. He's been one of the Flames' most porous defensive players all year despite playing against poor competition. He, Pitlick, and Lewis have actually posted the Flames' worst defensive results all season long (despite the latter two presumably being brought in to play defensive roles).

A fourth line can be a scoring line. The Flames' fourth line in 2018–19 was one of their top offensive lines down the stretch. That line had two sub-6' guys on it and two recent Stockton Heat graduates.
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Old 01-25-2022, 08:50 AM   #131
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Brett Ritchie xGF% 54.35 HDCF% 58.33
Vlad Ruzicka xGF% 45.04 HDCF% 42.11

Ruzicka deserves some more playing time based on last game but I'm not on the let's run Ritchie out of town train.
... Adam? this seems like a very strange jab.
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Old 01-25-2022, 08:55 AM   #132
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Ritchie isn't sound defensively... at all. He's been one of the Flames' most porous defensive players all year despite playing against poor competition. He, Pitlick, and Lewis have actually posted the Flames' worst defensive results all season long (despite the latter two presumably being brought in to play defensive roles).

A fourth line can be a scoring line. The Flames' fourth line in 2018–19 was one of their top offensive lines down the stretch. That line had two sub-6' guys on it and two recent Stockton Heat graduates.
So you are saying the team who has the 2nd best GAA in the NHL is getting hurt defensively by a guy that averages under 10 minutes a night? Not really at all true is it?

Again...you bring MP up to play 4th line....who does he play with that would allow him to use his talents? He wont be hard to play against, he wont have the same offensive talent to play with, will not get the same situational advantages he has in Stockton, and all this at a level he is not familiar with enough to have succeeded in before.

MP may have a role in the NHL if his size doesn't hinder him, no question.

That role is NOT as a grinder/hard to play against 4th liner who will hit, fight and do whatever the coach calls for. That's why Ritchie and Richardson make more sense than a tiny offensively gifted forward.

Its all about roles/places on the team. Its proven to be pretty successful during Sutters coaching career.
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:39 AM   #133
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Ritchie isn't sound defensively... at all. He's been one of the Flames' most porous defensive players all year despite playing against poor competition. He, Pitlick, and Lewis have actually posted the Flames' worst defensive results all season long (despite the latter two presumably being brought in to play defensive roles).

A fourth line can be a scoring line. The Flames' fourth line in 2018–19 was one of their top offensive lines down the stretch. That line had two sub-6' guys on it and two recent Stockton Heat graduates.
I thought Ritchie was quite good last night actually - given the fourth line expectations. Compared to say Richardson (never) and Lewis (some of the time) he wins puck battles and gets the puck out of his own zone.

Happy to have people earn their way up, or trades to replace all three of them, but Ritchie is my favourite of the three to stay on the roster.
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:42 AM   #134
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... Adam? this seems like a very strange jab.
Actually, it's an awesome reference. Vladimir Ruzicka once scored 75 points with the Bruins in 91-92!
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:43 AM   #135
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There will never be agreement on this because there are differing views on what the "4th Line" should be.

The "Traditional 4th line": Physical, low event veterans that aren't going to score, and hopefully just don't get scored on. Just go grind the puck in the corner for your 45 second shift and then get off the ice.

vs.

The "Modern 4th Line": Generally a mix of a veteran, and younger skilled players that will play a more sheltered role but might be able to contribute offensively. (Mangiapane-Ryan-Hathaway is a great example of this)

There are pros and cons to each of these options. The traditional 4th line tends to be the safer option, but I think longer them the more modern 4th line is more effective and is better at working young players into the lineup.

And you see examples of both in the league. The Flames are full on traditional 4th line right now. Toronto and Pittsburgh have similar veteran 4th line (although I'd argue both have players much more effective than the players Calgary are leveraging). Tampa, Colorado, Carolina and some others have went with the younger 4th line.

Personally I don't really have an issue with having a veteran 4th line. The issue is more that the guys we have just aren't very good at it. Richardson has been just terrible all season. I don't hate Ritchie but ideally he's your 13th forward and isn't in the line up every night. Lewis plays his role and is a good PKer but isn't great at 5v5. Pitlick has shown nothing and Sutter doesn't seem to like him. Ideally you have one of those guys in your lineup each night, not three of them.

Ideally we could add two more top 9 pieces and then that creates a more effective "Veteran 4th line". Something like:

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk
Mangiapane - Monahan - (Trade)
(Trade) - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic - Dube - Lewis
Ritchie

I would like to see two of Phillips, Ruzicka, and Pelletier get a shot in those "open" spots for now, and then if you acquire a piece or two at the deadline you can send them back down.

(And to be clear our top 9 seems to be clicking a little better right now, so I wouldn't make the change right now, but maybe down the line again when things dry up)

Last edited by SuperMatt18; 01-25-2022 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:18 PM   #136
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There will never be agreement on this because there are differing views on what the "4th Line" should be.

The "Traditional 4th line": Physical, low event veterans that aren't going to score, and hopefully just don't get scored on. Just go grind the puck in the corner for your 45 second shift and then get off the ice.

vs.

The "Modern 4th Line": Generally a mix of a veteran, and younger skilled players that will play a more sheltered role but might be able to contribute offensively. (Mangiapane-Ryan-Hathaway is a great example of this)

There are pros and cons to each of these options. The traditional 4th line tends to be the safer option, but I think longer them the more modern 4th line is more effective and is better at working young players into the lineup.
Thinking back to the 2004 team, the 3rd/4th lines would often be used to get Iginla extra shifts (Oliwa generally playing 4-5 mins a night giving Iggy an extra shift or two each period).

Thinking out loud here, but I think it's a good option to explore if it means spreading the skill a bit more through the top 9

Gaudreau-Lindholm-(Coleman/trade*)
Mangiapane-Monahan-Tkachuk (3M v 3.0)
Lucic-Backlund-(Coleman/trade)

Remaining 3 forwards:
1. Swiss army knife (e.g. Marcus Johansson, Kris Versteeg, etc.) Dubé/Lucic would actually fit this role pretty well if we managed to add to the top 9.
2. PK specialist (probably Lewis from this roster)
3. 7th D/rover type (would have tried Kylington here before he earned a real spot) or just a grinder/wildcard player (Phillips)

It means bringing the blender out a bit more, but it would mean we almost always have threats on the ice 5v5 (or the Backlund shutdown line)

Lewis-Dubé- _____ (Tkachuk most often)


*most likely a middle 6 winger, but imagine Giroux in that spot (full NMC = unlikely).


The team has also been remarkably healthy so far, with Coleman being the only top 9 forward to miss a game (game 1 = suspension). I don't love bumping Lewis into the top 9 (maybe that would actually be the case for Phillips to get a look)...we will definitely need another forward for this condensed stretch run.
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:55 PM   #137
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So you are saying the team who has the 2nd best GAA in the NHL is getting hurt defensively by a guy that averages under 10 minutes a night? Not really at all true is it?

Again...you bring MP up to play 4th line....who does he play with that would allow him to use his talents? He wont be hard to play against, he wont have the same offensive talent to play with, will not get the same situational advantages he has in Stockton, and all this at a level he is not familiar with enough to have succeeded in before.

MP may have a role in the NHL if his size doesn't hinder him, no question.

That role is NOT as a grinder/hard to play against 4th liner who will hit, fight and do whatever the coach calls for. That's why Ritchie and Richardson make more sense than a tiny offensively gifted forward.

Its all about roles/places on the team. Its proven to be pretty successful during Sutters coaching career.
While I don't disagree with your point, if Phillips were to be brought up, I would assume it would be in a role where he could in fact help and succeed.

Last night's lines:

(top 6 fine)
Lucic - Monahan - Dube
Lewis - Ruzicka - Ritchie

If you bring in Phillips, the 3rd line makes more sense, and you can run with something like:

Dube - Monahan - Phillips
Lucic - Ruzicka - Lewis

4th line maintains its truculence, and the 3rd line gets faster and better offensively.

I am not sold on Phillips, but if he were brought up, I would hope it would be in a capacity more like this.
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Old 01-25-2022, 01:05 PM   #138
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... Adam? this seems like a very strange jab.
Not a jab, a mistake. Thinking back to Vlad, as Muta pointed out.
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Old 01-25-2022, 01:13 PM   #139
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Walker Duehr would be a good call up.
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Old 01-25-2022, 03:22 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
There will never be agreement on this because there are differing views on what the "4th Line" should be.

The "Traditional 4th line": Physical, low event veterans that aren't going to score, and hopefully just don't get scored on. Just go grind the puck in the corner for your 45 second shift and then get off the ice.

vs.

The "Modern 4th Line": Generally a mix of a veteran, and younger skilled players that will play a more sheltered role but might be able to contribute offensively. (Mangiapane-Ryan-Hathaway is a great example of this)

There are pros and cons to each of these options. The traditional 4th line tends to be the safer option, but I think longer them the more modern 4th line is more effective and is better at working young players into the lineup.

And you see examples of both in the league. The Flames are full on traditional 4th line right now. Toronto and Pittsburgh have similar veteran 4th line (although I'd argue both have players much more effective than the players Calgary are leveraging). Tampa, Colorado, Carolina and some others have went with the younger 4th line.

Personally I don't really have an issue with having a veteran 4th line. The issue is more that the guys we have just aren't very good at it. Richardson has been just terrible all season. I don't hate Ritchie but ideally he's your 13th forward and isn't in the line up every night. Lewis plays his role and is a good PKer but isn't great at 5v5. Pitlick has shown nothing and Sutter doesn't seem to like him. Ideally you have one of those guys in your lineup each night, not three of them.

Ideally we could add two more top 9 pieces and then that creates a more effective "Veteran 4th line". Something like:

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk
Mangiapane - Monahan - (Trade)
(Trade) - Backlund - Coleman
Lucic - Dube - Lewis
Ritchie

I would like to see two of Phillips, Ruzicka, and Pelletier get a shot in those "open" spots for now, and then if you acquire a piece or two at the deadline you can send them back down.

(And to be clear our top 9 seems to be clicking a little better right now, so I wouldn't make the change right now, but maybe down the line again when things dry up)

Pelletier on backlunds left. Toffoli on Monahans right.
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