2017-18 Toronto Raptors and General NBA Thread

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well there's always the chance Durant leaves this summer now that he's got his two rings. Maybe he goes back to OKC to bring them a title, like LeBron did with Cleveland. I also saw that Stephen A was saying Boston will be a contender to get LeBron this summer, but the only scenario that makes sense for him going to Boston is if the Celtics trade Kyrie, Heyward and either Tatum or Brown to the Pelicans and then it's LeBron and Anthony Davis in Boston. Personally I'd like to see LeBron on either the Celtics or Spurs so LeBron can finally have an elite coach.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Colangelo is out in Philly. In a just world they'd re-hire Hinkie, or if nothing else the NBA owes the man an apology. Colangelo was a far greater humiliation than Hinkie ever was.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well there's always the chance Durant leaves this summer now that he's got his two rings. Maybe he goes back to OKC to bring them a title, like LeBron did with Cleveland. I also saw that Stephen A was saying Boston will be a contender to get LeBron this summer, but the only scenario that makes sense for him going to Boston is if the Celtics trade Kyrie, Heyward and either Tatum or Brown to the Pelicans and then it's LeBron and Anthony Davis in Boston. Personally I'd like to see LeBron on either the Celtics or Spurs so LeBron can finally have an elite coach.

And hopefully that will make the raptors and their management look in the mirror and admit they have no shot. Start trading peices because they aren’t going to be convincing the fans of anything. They can roll out as many “This year is different” campaigns but at the end of the day this was their only year to have a chance at the finals and they didn’t just blow it, they embarrassed everyone who bought in.

I’ve been low key optimistic about the raptors for a few years, I thought that maybe they could lure another star player but Masai never made that big trade and gave out some horrorawful contracts that will hamper this teams ability to rebuild and trade assets. The mirage was nice but lebron going to the sixers or Boston would destroy any of the raptors fleeting hopes for future contendership. Not like those hopes are big anyways even if he goes west.

[Senator Clay Davis]

This has been discussed ad nauseum, but unless Masai turns into the worst GM in sports, or unless he chooses to willingly take 10 cents on the dollar, the Raps are stuck right now. Just not many options. Or maybe give LeBron Northern Ontario in exchange for joining the Raps instead. Let him turn it into one big cottage or whatever.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

This has been discussed ad nauseum, but unless Masai turns into the worst GM in sports, or unless he chooses to willingly take 10 cents on the dollar, the Raps are stuck right now. Just not many options. Or maybe give LeBron Northern Ontario in exchange for joining the Raps instead. Let him turn it into one big cottage or whatever.

Ya he is stuck but it was his choosing to be stuck. I like Masai but most fans are officially done with his fools gold schtic. I don’t like his belief that the raptors “process” is going to work, he cap tied the team with two terrible contracts and he wasn’t agrressive enough to pursue big names like Cousins when he was available. They are officially in no-mans land but at some point you can’t let Derozan and Lowry go for nothing, and that means trading them mid season when their prices could be higher then now. Not doing this is just delaying the inevitable. No firsts in this year’s draft as well is just brutal.

Next year will be a massive eye opener for the raptors, they will see the fans have zero optimism for this team and enthusiasm will be extremely low. I honestly don’t know if he will survive the next few years.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Ok, so please lay out how he can trade Lowry, Ibaka and DeRozan and get anything remotely close to value. But even if you can do that, the remaining pieces are good enough to make the playoffs in the East. Nuking this roster is legitimately impossible, folding the franchise and starting a new expansion team is probably easier. Gotta hope he hits a couple draft picks basically.

Edit: Seeing as the Pelicans were better without Cousins than with him.....Cousins is a good player, but doesn't seem like a guy you win titles with either.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Ok, so please lay out how he can trade Lowry, Ibaka and DeRozan and get anything remotely close to value. But even if you can do that, the remaining pieces are good enough to make the playoffs in the East. Nuking this roster is legitimately impossible, folding the franchise and starting a new expansion team is probably easier.

You trade them at the deadline mid season and you take what you can get and rebuild this team properly and form a team that fits the style of the modern NBA. Not a team with an iso shooter who forgets how to shoot when the lights are the beightest and can’t defend, an undersized point gaurd who gets overmatched by more athletic players, and a big man who you can’t play in a variety of situations. The culture change was cute until they had to play a legit team and then they crumbled. How they can actually go the next 3 years with this garbage is beyond me, they will have to take what they can get for these players and start over. No ones coming to Toronto in free agency and they have nothing to trade for a star. Admit defeat and move on, but they won’t because this is the best team in raptors history (yay) and we should be happy with it. Cuz getting embarrassed every playoffs is fun but at least they almost won 60 games.

The east is a joke and the raptors proved why it is again this year.

And cousins is better than anyone on this team, probably by a lot. It’s almost like playing 2 ball dominant centres is a bad idea.

[Senator Clay Davis]

But even trading those three at the deadline, you are still a playoff team in the East. This is what I keep hammering home, the bench mob's underlying numbers last year were incredible. Now I get a lot of those minutes came against backups, but they were still one of the very best five man units in the NBA. You basically have to start doing stupid #### like renouncing FVV and trading Delon for draft picks, waiving Poeltl and trying to trade good NBA players for guys like Luol Deng.

We all hate the Raps current predicament, but there isn't much realistically to do except hope they hit a draft pick out of the park, or maybe LeBron wants to become PM and we do that in exchange for coming to Toronto. It sucks, but the alternative is literally making yourself appear to be the worst run franchise in the history of sports.

Also Cousins literally has zero playoff wins. He's a very good player, but I view him as in the same class as DeRozan in that he needs to be the #2/#3 option if you wanna win a ring. He'd be the #1 option on the Raptors.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You trade them at the deadline mid season and you take what you can get and rebuild this team properly and form a team that fits the style of the modern NBA. Not a team with an iso shooter who forgets how to shoot when the lights are the beightest and can’t defend, an undersized point gaurd who gets overmatched by more athletic players, and a big man who you can’t play in a variety of situations. The culture change was cute until they had to play a legit team and then they crumbled. How they can actually go the next 3 years with this garbage is beyond me, they will have to take what they can get for these players and start over. No ones coming to Toronto in free agency and they have nothing to trade for a star. Admit defeat and move on, but they won’t because this is the best team in raptors history (yay) and we should be happy with it. Cuz getting embarrassed every playoffs is fun but at least they almost won 60 games.

The east is a joke and the raptors proved why it is again this year.

And cousins is better than anyone on this team, probably by a lot. It’s almost like playing 2 ball dominant centres is a bad idea.

So you re-build the team back to probably something that resembles what it is now - a good team that can't beat the super teams.
What's the point of that?
I agree the NBA is effed. No intrigue. No tension.

[Strange Brew]

The Rockets were a hamstring strain away from dethroning Golden State, and even then held big leads in game 6 and 7.

A little unfair to say the Warriors were a foregone conclusion.

[Senator Clay Davis]

^While probably true, the counter is had the Warriors had Iguodala in games 4 and 5, they likely win one of those, and probably win in 6. Now I realize the counter to that is "Is four All-Stars and two surefire HOFers not enough?". And while that's definitely a valid point, it doesn't change the value Iguodala brings. Even though Durant was amazing last night, Iguodala made some big plays last night too, and his intelligence on the floor can't be underestimated. Not sure they win last night without him.

As far as holding big leads, have we not gotten use to that this postseason? The Warriors generally only play one quarter at full effort, and that's the third which they've dominated at an absurd level this year. They skate through the first half, and then turn it on. Jason14h said it, but it seems like most nights the biggest opponent they are fighting is boredom.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Like this is ridiculous lol. They literally win off one quarter

https://twitter.com/user/status/1001336327122669568

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

So you re-build the team back to probably something that resembles what it is now - a good team that can't beat the super teams.
What's the point of that?
I agree the NBA is effed. No intrigue. No tension.

No what I’m saying is burn it to the ground and acquire peices that can be the next wave of superstars. The sixers model has worked and as much as fans will hate it it’s the best way to build a contender in this age. If the raptors didn’t fluke into a good team like they did they could’ve had Ben Simmons, Embbid, Tatum or any of the other young studs in the NBA. They had the 8th pick 2 years ago and took a player who has little upside. The only way they emerge as a contender after this warrior/lebron era is by tanking and tanking hard in the near future. That’s the only way.

Sixers have a very good team now that is poised to make a splash in free agency, Celtics as well. Both teams got there with high draft picks. Celtics got their by trading their stars when they knew they had no chance to compete with lebron. If the raptors want to keep living in their facade they will keep missing out on drafting great young players. The bench was also a complete no-show vs the Cavs, I wouldn’t be tied to any of them and I don’t see any potential stars on the bench.

Raptors have never properly built a team, a lot of impatience and poor drafting that has seen them never become elite.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Yes, the Sixers model works. The Raps need to destroy their roster at an absolutely unprecedented level in any sport ever to get there. It cannot happen next year, or probably even the year after that. They have to accept horrible trades to get into position to tank. You act as if it's really easy for them, they're just gonna choose not to do it. I basically guarantee you Masai would have preferred to gut the roster and keep Casey. But he can't, it's just not realistically possible. So they gotta hope they can be the Capitals or Mavericks, a roster seemingly past best before that had a run.

Also, the Spurs and Warriors have a combined one player they drafted in the top 10, and look at them, the model franchises in the sport. Are you gonna say they never properly built a team? Houston hasn't picked in the lottery in years. Tanking isn't the only way, it's the easiest way, but not for the Raps in the current situation. Honestly if to you the only way is to tank, the Raps are at least three years away from starting that process.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Like this is ridiculous lol. They literally win off one quarter

https://twitter.com/user/status/1001336327122669568

I figure that is a bit skewed too - as they build a huge lead in the 3rd, the 4th is going to be closer because they back off/pull out their stars, etc.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Yes, the Sixers model works. The Raps need to destroy their roster at an absolutely unprecedented level in any sport ever to get there. It cannot happen next year, or probably even the year after that. They have to accept horrible trades to get into position to tank. You act as if it's really easy for them, they're just gonna choose not to do it. I basically guarantee you Masai would have preferred to gut the roster and keep Casey. But he can't, it's just not realistically possible. So they gotta hope they can be the Capitals or Mavericks, a roster seemingly past best before that had a run.

Also, the Spurs and Warriors have a combined one player they drafted in the top 10, and look at them, the model franchises in the sport. Are you gonna say they never properly built a team? Houston hasn't picked in the lottery in years. Tanking isn't the only way, it's the easiest way, but not for the Raps in the current situation. Honestly if to you the only way is to tank, the Raps are at least three years away from starting that process.

Huh? Spurs drafted Tim Duncan, David Robinson and Curry was a top 10 pick. You don’t have to accept horrible trades, you can raise their value and then trade them mid season. You keep saying can’t but they can and I don’t see an Ovechkin on this roster. Raptors do not have any elite players but have been building their team like they have 2, its been all fools gold. Raptors also don’t have a popovich and drafting the way the warriors did takes luck and great scouting, neither which the raptors have. Derozan is not a player that will win games against very good teams in the playoffs. Can’t shoot the 3, can’t defend, and gets so frustrated that he forgets how to play his game. The raptors will never ever win when he is a fundemental part of the offense. If you are saying that I should be resigned to the fact that the raptors will see out this core and Derozan for the next 3 years and be happy with it, I won’t. Raptors are not the spurs or the warriors, Derozan couldn’t play for the spurs because he is the exact opposite of a prototypical popovich player. Again improving the team would be an option but Masai cap tied the team, time to gut it. The east is terrible, take what you can get for Derozan and Lowry and move on. What’s the point of continuing trying to put a square peg in a round hole? Masai’s only
Focus should be getting the best trades possible for Lowry and Derozan, that should be priority no.1, I will not be invested at all in the raptors until both are gone and the team becomes invested in a real rebuild. Not a half assed one that has only led to playoff embarrassment.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Yeah and Tim Duncan and David Robinson have what to do with the current Spurs roster? Nevermind that they haven't picked in the lottery in 20 years, and despite that have 19 season of 50 wins since. They don't need to tank to build a consistently elite roster. And I said Curry was a top 10 pick, hence the "they only have one player drafted in the top 10 between them" quip. I mean you could field this team with non-lottery picks: C - Jokic; PF - Giannis; SF - Kawhi; SG - Donovan Mitchell; PG - Jimmy Butler (obviously stretching here, but you see my point). And that team is probably the best team in the NBA. So it can be done, just needs good drafting.

And yes you have to accept horrible trades if you wanna tank. Getting value for DeRozan means getting a top 20 player, or picks near the top 5 in the draft. Go ahead and tell me who's gonna do that. So if you wanna tank, you basically gotta trade DeRozan for Luol Deng or someone similar. So when I say they can't, unless you're saying they should do trades like that, they can't. Beyond that, anyone who'd want to acquire DeRozan is a team like the Rockets or another contender, so you're looking at picks in the 20s. Why would rebuilding teams want a player like that in their prime? So if you're gonna rely on picks in the 20s, something you already have, why make those trades?

As far as DeRozan can't play for the Spurs, why not offer DeRozan for a first round pick and Danny Green? Do you actually think RC Bufford and Pop would decline that trade? They'd be laughing their asses off.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

I figure that is a bit skewed too - as they build a huge lead in the 3rd, the 4th is going to be closer because they back off/pull out their stars, etc.

That's the point. They essentially play a hard 3rd quarter and cruise control the rest of the game.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Yeah and Tim Duncan and David Robinson have what to do with the current Spurs roster? Nevermind that they haven't picked in the lottery in 20 years, and despite that have 19 season of 50 wins since. They don't need to tank to build a consistently elite roster. And I said Curry was a top 10 pick, hence the "they only have one player drafted in the top 10 between them" quip. I mean you could field this team, with non-lottery picks: C - Jokic; PF - Giannis; SF - Kawhi; SG - Donovan Mitchell; PG - Jimmy Butler (obviously stretching here, but you see my point). And that team is probably the best team in the NBA. So it can be done, just needs good drafting.

And yes you have to accept horrible trades if you wanna tank. Getting value for DeRozan means getting a top 20 player, or picks near the top 5 in the draft. Go ahead and tell me who's gonna do that. So if you wanna tank, you basically gotta trade DeRozan for Luol Deng or someone similar. So when I say they can't, unless you're saying they should do trades like that, they can't. Beyond that, anyone who'd want to acquire DeRozan is a team like the Rockets or another contender, so you're looking at picks in the 20s. Why would rebuilding teams want a player like that in their prime? So if you're gonna rely on picks in the 20s, something you already have, why make those trades?

As far as DeRozan can't play for the Spurs, why not offer DeRozan for a first round pick and Danny Green. Do you actually think RC Bufford and Pop would decline that trade? They'd be laughing their asses off.

Memphis could probably be interested in Derozan for the 4th pick this year, I would do that. My point was this team is not the spurs, they are so far away from the spurs it makes no sense to compare them. They haven’t drafted a Ginobli, a Parker, a Kawhi. They have drafted a Delon, an OG, a Poetl, a soaks by and signed Van Vleet they may be gone. Those are decent young players that made a good bench but there’s no player on this roster that would make the spurs roster in their hay day. To say the raptors can do what they did or even what the rockets did is neglecting that the team they have is not nearly as good. They play in a god awful conference with teams that are going to continue to acquire better younger players. Raptors will continued to get passed

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Memphis could probably be interested in Derozan for the 4th pick this year, I would do that.

No they wouldn't be lol. Why? Adding DeRozan means they get to fight with the Nuggets for the 8 seed, maybe. And did you actually watch any Grizzlies last year? They lost 19 games in a row because they were tanking. They aren't going from "let's get young guys" to "lets get an in-prime star". I mean dare to dream, but no. No one in the top 5 would want DeRozan. At best, you can flip him to the Knicks for #9 or Hornets at #11, but that's still not good value. Highly, highly unlikely the #9 or #11 pick will ever be better than DeRozan.

My point about the Spurs and Warriors is you don't have to go full Process to build a team. You can find elite players in the draft outside the top 5. And it's also worth remembering the Process involved a big amount of luck. After all Embiid dropped to #3 despite being the consensus best player. The Sixers might have drafted Wiggins instead, and they'd be a likely also-ran rather than budding contender.