Ongoing Crisis in Canadian air travel

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You sure know how to type nonsense. Dr Peterson? The amonut of characterizations you've made of me in the last hour is astounding. But that makes nemeses for someone who looks at Venezuela and thinks "ya, that's the ticket". Why do you think I'm comfortable "socializing the loses"? Where did I say that? I'm against governments seizes corporations because why the #### would you keep your corporation in Canada if the threat of government taking it exists? It would be a ridiculous precedent. It's a stupid idea.



And your idea to subsidize air travel with tax dollars is also stupid. There is nothing "essential" about air travel. Give me dental and a drug plan before this stupidity.

This is a whole lot of stupid for a Saturday morning, I'm out.

You keep breathlessly talking about how I love Venezuela. That is where the Peterson reference comes. Venezuela is his boogeyman he brings up anytime someone mentions the government should do something.

Enjoy your morning

[Bigtime]

I for one am all for nationalizing Air Canada so we can rename them Mapleflot.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by Azure

https://torontosun.com/opinion/colum...-travel-delays

Discuss.

Don't forget to make excuses for the Trudeau's government incompetence. I'm sure the usual suspects will chime in.

JFC you are never ending. The only thing Trudeau can be looked at is the security clearance side of things, which they are hiring and training, but of course won't be immediate change. And I'm quite sure they didn't feel like hiring a ton of people when demand was so low. If they did, then you would be posting articles here saying Trudeau is at fault for paying people that aren't working.

Is there any point you'll ever acknowledge other factors at play, like I don't know.... the fact that we just went through a pandemic ? Or was that Trudeaus fault as well. Did you expect things to suddenly go back to normal so quickly? Why do you even have to blame people for everything? Why not just acknowledge the #### we all just went through and take the recovery pains as they are.

Your opinion column tends to disagree it's a worldwide problem, but it is even though you probably refuse to admit it. Not only that, it's broad across all industries, not just airlines/airports. The app and restrictions are doing sweet nothing to cause this.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...el-2022-06-29/

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Facts aren’t really important to lots of people, but billions in aid to “airlines”?

Air Canada got 5.4 billion in loans, if that is what you’re talking about. Westjet got $0.00 of any type of airline specific aid.

The government did almost nothing compared to most other countries in the world for the “airlines”.

For everything else people should read cmyden’s excellent and well balanced post on why the situation is what it is.

So air Canada did take government money and they did layoff all their staff anyways? They were not the only airline to do so.

Which part of that was not true in my post?

[Azure]

Does the $5.4 billion in loans include COVID support? Are you saying Westjet took zero dollars in any kind of COVID support, loans, bailouts, government resources, etc?

Is that because it wasn't available or because they just never took it?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by cecil terwilliger

it doesn’t. All that bs azure posted has been debunked already.

the airlines accepted billions in bailouts and then fired all their staff anyways. Now we have an staffing crisis. Not to mention the staffing crisis at the airports themselves.

It has nothing to do with vaccine restrictions.

Originally Posted by ryan coke

facts aren’t really important to lots of people, but billions in aid to “airlines”?

air canada got 5.4 billion in loans, if that is what you’re talking about. Westjet got $0.00 of any type of airline specific aid.

the government did almost nothing compared to most other countries in the world for the “airlines”.

For everything else people should read cmyden’s excellent and well balanced post on why the situation is what it is.

Originally Posted by cecil terwilliger

so air canada did take government money and they did layoff all their staff anyways? They were not the only airline to do so.

which part of that was not true in my post?

lol

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Azure

Does the $5.4 billion in loans include COVID support? Are you saying Westjet took zero dollars in any kind of COVID support, loans, bailouts, government resources, etc?

Is that because it wasn't available or because they just never took it?

I believe WestJet took the wage support program.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2...t-announcement

[cmyden]

Just to mention, because I don't think it got nearly the same amount of media attention and many might not be aware, but back in November 2021 Air Canada announced they no longer needed most of the $5.9 billion package they negotiated with the government in April of 2021.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...it-lobbied-for

WestJet was the only major Canadian airline that never ended up negotiating additional loan assistance from the government. The private equity firm that owns them (Onex Corp) has some pretty deep pockets to put it mildly.

It would be hard to find many major airlines around the world that *didn't* take government assistance from their nation during the pandemic to get them through some very dark days. Sorry, I mean years.

KLM - $1 billion Euros
Lufthansa - $9 billion Euros
Singapore Airlines - $13 billion
Major U.S. Airlines - $54 billion USD

Googling around for these numbers it looks like many airlines have already paid back these loans.

[cral12]

Wife and a friend on separate occasions in the past week had nightmare airport experiences in Montreal airport with major delays and then one of the flights being cancelled eventually fwiw. Air Canada staff ill-informed - they also looked disengaged, demoralized, and ready to bolt at any moment (who could blame them). Little information provided and zero apologies for delays, cancellations. At one point, it was made clear by an announcement that flight from MTL to YYC was low priority (compared to the international flights). Good times.

(really appreciate cmyden's detailed analysis which makes a bunch of sense)

[Bill Bumface]

I know someone involved in pilot training. There has been a pilot crunch coming well before COVID entered the chat. Like many other building issues, it just got exposed very suddenly with all the knock-on pandemic effects.

[Snuffleupagus]

What was supposed to be a 9 hour trip from Vancouver to Charlottetown for a friend took over 2 days

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Azure

Does the $5.4 billion in loans include COVID support? Are you saying Westjet took zero dollars in any kind of COVID support, loans, bailouts, government resources, etc?

Is that because it wasn't available or because they just never took it?

WestJet was offered a government loan as well although the terms of the offer took much longer to figure out than the AC deal. In the end, WestJet ownership and Management decided that the terms were unfavourable and did not accept support from the Feds. They did participate in the wage subsidy program though.

[stampsx2]

Nm

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I believe WestJet took the wage support program.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2...t-announcement

Sure, but that wasn't airline specific. All sorts of businesses in nearly every sector got that deal.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Sure, but that wasn't airline specific. All sorts of businesses in nearly every sector got that deal.

Azure was asking if WestJet utilized any of the supports during Covid, I was simply answering that.

[chemgear]

Everything aside, who puts 70?!? lobsters in their luggage?

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/delays...ions-1.5971899

Some report sleeping at airports due to cancellations and delays. One person, flying from Newfoundland to Vancouver Island, said it took two cancelled flights and an extra day to get home, while his luggage — filled with 70 frozen lobsters — took two days to arrive


Samantha Van Noy says she lost three pieces of luggage that, at the time she wrote to CTVNews.ca, hadn't arrived in more than eight days.

Flying to Chicago for a tradeshow, Van Noy says her booth materials were in her luggage and the amount of money lost due to her airline's "incompetence is incalculable."


Kimberly Horton, a Canadian living in Austin, Texas, said she bought three tickets in February for herself, her husband and their son to fly to Toronto to visit her family, whom she hasn't seen in three years due to COVID-19.

"My husband was denied boarding and my son was crying as we left," she said.

After being asked to check her carry-on luggage due to a lack of overhead compartment space, Horton says her bag never showed up.

"It had all of my valuables, medications, contact lenses, my son's retainers, my Invisalign, etc. Things you need and can't replace on vacation," she said.

She got her bag three days later. Meanwhile, her husband was able to get on another flight, only to have it evacuated due to a fuel spill.

"That was the final breaking point for my husband. He was exhausted of everything and asked for his luggage back. They returned his bags wreaking of jet fuel and he headed home cancelling his vacation with us," Horton said


Oksana Klausmann had booked a trip from Toronto to New York City for late June and says after a lengthy check-in process, she and her daughter went through customs only to discover that they were not on the flight manifest, despite having their boarding passes.

From there, she says they were taken to a small room packed with other families, children, and seniors, among others.

She described the room as not having enough seats for everyone, forcing some to sit on the floor, and one small washroom with no soap, toilet paper or paper towels. Klausmann says there were no cups for the water fountain.

Several hours later, they received an email saying their flight was cancelled. An agent then arrived with a pair of police officers confirming the situation.

Once back at Toronto Pearson, following a long delay on their return flight, Klausmann says only 15 passengers were allowed to leave the plane at a time due to congestion at customs.


After his flight from Prince George, B.C., to Toronto for July was cancelled, Harmolk Brar said he was given an option of cancelling the flight online for a refund.

Opting for this, he says the airline wanted to charge him $150 plus tax in penalties.

"A cancellation penalty for flights that they have already cancelled," he said. "This is the most preposterous thing I've heard of."


She chose to cancel and was told her refund would be less than half of what she originally paid. Boulter said she has tried unsuccessfully to reach someone from the airline by phone, an online contact form and social media.

"I had paid for three nights at a hotel and it was non-refundable by the point I learned my flight was cancelled. I also paid for concert tickets to two shows, which were non-refundable," she said.

"The concert was a two-night performance of my favourite band, playing their first album in its entirety on the 20th anniversary of that album, in their hometown. This experience was going to be huge for me. I'm so soured by this experience."


A spokesperson for the company said it would reduce its schedule by 154 flights per day on average for those two months, with the most affected routes expected to be to and from Toronto and Montreal.

Prior to that, Air Canada operated approximately 1,000 flights per day.

[OldDutch]

I’ll never forget being in Buenos Aries in 2008 when a labor protest happened in the parking lot of the airport. It was a bit chaotic but we got through to our Continental airlines flight and out to Dallas without delay.

Unlike the Canadians I passed on the way to my gate. Who were left stranded as they watched their AC flight depart with only crew. I stood amazed to watch the plane taxi and take off with out them. They were told the crew was fearful of safety.

Couldn’t have a more perfect example of a central Canadian company than good old AC.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Everything aside, who puts 70?!? lobsters in their luggage?

My bad...it was just too good a deal to pass up.

I do plan to keep some as pets though, I named my favourite one 'Clamps.'

[Macman]

Makes you wonder if it’s safe to fly, if they’re struggling with processing people and their luggage what’s it like on the airplane side?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is this a serious post? So the government seizes a private corporation, which would be catastrophic in it's own right. Then everyone in Canada pays for this "deal" even if they never fly, then you setup a fair structure that loses massive amounts of money on every passenger. How does this play out? Tax payers just keep forking over money so we can have "cheap" flights for those who want to fly?


Do you have any understanding of how reality works?

You know what the real problem is? Business.

Why even have private businesses? We should just Nationalize everything.

And after that? Why bother with pesky nonsense like personal choices? The Government should know whats best for us and provide it.

And then we can have a National Lottery system where the winners get shipped off to the Canadian Paradise of Cape Breton.