Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Bennett is also averaging 9 minutes in ice time this season. Now obviously it’s early, but I don’t see him getting any PP time or 1st line minutes like he got last season. Every player is in charge of their own career and need to show without a shadow of a doubt that they belong where they belong and unfortunately for Sam Bennett, he hasn’t proven or earned a top 6 role yet. He might down the road as he’s young, but there’s guarantee he will.

Also, Taylor Hall scored at a rate of a 90 point player and finished top 10 in scoring before he was shipped to New Jersey. So had shown that he had that ability before, Sam Bennett has not shown that he can do that. So Taylor Hall and Sam Bennett are not comparables in my eyes.

Keep in mind the 9 minutes is 7 + 7 + 14 with the coach saying they needed to get Bennett more minutes.

Given how well he played on that line, he may not be going back to the 7 minute guy at least for now.

The key is what does he do with it?

I still maintain it's 85% mental with this guy and once he gets established in a role and can trust it he will become more productive.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

If Bennett gets better and shows some offensive prowess I have no doubt he could work his way into the top 6 on the Flames.

I feel like our top 5 players are locked in but still think there is a winger spot that hasn't been hammered down as of yet.

Czarnik is looking good on the 2nd line but he has by no means solidified his role there.

Neal didn't look like a fit with 19 and 11 so he is already on the 3rd line looking to find some chemistry.

I feel like the door is wide open for Bennett, Czarnik, Neal or Dube to solidify a role in the top 6. Tkachuk would play just fine on the RW if required, Peters even asked him to work on board play etc. as if he was a RWer over the summer.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Bennett-Backlund-Tkachuk

..wouldn't be that crazy of a thought if Bennett started to turn things up and realize his potential.

And I'd add to that the secondary battle to build a third line that can add to the momentum of the first two.

Neal is a given, but then you have a bunch of choices looking for a left wing and center that can create offence with Neal.

Ryan had a shot and was demoted. Dube is getting that second look, but it could be Jankowski's before long.

Bennett stirred the drink from the left side the other night so that's a good start.

[EldrickOnIce]

Though many would disagree, I thought he always got shots like this, and he never did much with them, for whatever reason. But really strong game from Bennett the other night, and solidified a spot there (for now anyway). Would be fantastic for a little puck luck to fall his way, for a change. A bit of confidence/swagger could go a long way - otherwise it starts to become yet another year when Bennett goes pointless for a long stretch to start a season.

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Though many would disagree, I thought he always got shots like this, and he never did much with them, for whatever reason. But really strong game from Bennett the other night, and solidified a spot there (for now anyway). Would be fantastic for a little puck luck to fall his way, for a change. A bit of confidence/swagger could go a long way - otherwise it starts to become yet another year when Bennett goes pointless for a long stretch to start a season.

I agree, he has had his chances. I hope he takes this as a jolt and starts going with better linemates, it would go along way if he would figure it out and we can put this talk about him behind us. I still think its too early to let him go.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Keep in mind the 9 minutes is 7 + 7 + 14 with the coach saying they needed to get Bennett more minutes.

Given how well he played on that line, he may not be going back to the 7 minute guy at least for now.

The key is what does he do with it?

I still maintain it's 85% mental with this guy and once he gets established in a role and can trust it he will become more productive.

I think he also just needs the puck to go in for him and his line.

If you look at his individual production outside of Goals and Points he's actually still creating a lot of chances and creates a ton of rebounds and really only had a subpar sophomore season.

2015/2016:
Individual Scoring Chance For - 132 (2nd)
Individual High Danger For - 64 (T-1st)
Rebounds Created - 17 (1st)
Individual Shooting Percentage - 13.21% (5th)
On Ice Shooting Percentage - 8.59%

2016/2017:
Individual Scoring Chance For - 113 (6th)
Individual High Danger For - 50 (6th)
Rebounds Created - 9 (9th)
Individual Shooting Percentage - 7.55% (11th)
On Ice Shooting Percentage - 6.22%

2017/2018:
Individual Scoring Chance For - 164 (T-1st)
Individual High Danger For - 75 (2nd)
Rebounds Created - 22 (2nd)
Individual Shooting Percentage - 7.04 (6th)
On Ice Shooting Percentage - 5.66%

If you look at him and Monahans scoring chance numbers and High Danger numbers they were pretty much identical in Bennett's 1st and 3rd full seasons. And in 2 out of his 3 full seasons on the team he's been either first or second in individual scoring chances created, High Danger chances created, and rebounds created - that ranked him in the top 40 in the league in each category in 17/18 and doesn't scream 4th liner who should be playing 7-10 minutes a night to me.

The team just needs to do a better job of putting the guy in a position to succeed with more skilled linemates and if that happens hopefully the puck actually starts going in the net when he is on the ice. (Probably needs to work on his shot and maybe change his stick too lol)

[Bingo]

If Bennett is the guy to find mojo with Neal his season, and potentially his career is saved.

Will it be Bennett? Dube? Jankowski? Ryan? Frolik? ... one of these guys has to get stapled to the sniper and they're set.

[Fire It Up]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If Bennett is the guy to find mojo with Neal his season, and potentially his career is saved.

Will it be Bennett? Dube? Jankowski? Ryan? Frolik? ... one of these guys has to get stapled to the sniper and they're set.

Further to that, I would think if he is to find his mojo with Neal, why not try him once again at Center? We drafted him as a Center perhaps he has a better shot of finding his groove with wingers that have pace and sniping ability on his wings. Based on how the bottom 6 Center's have been rotated so far, I don't see how this can hurt since we are still trying to find some stability there. I'd go for bottom six:

Dube-Bennett-Neal
Frolik-Ryan-Peluso/Hathaway

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If Bennett is the guy to find mojo with Neal his season, and potentially his career is saved.

Will it be Bennett? Dube? Jankowski? Ryan? Frolik? ... one of these guys has to get stapled to the sniper and they're set.

Ok. I know we love to call Neal a sniper. And talk about 20 goal seasons. Can we get a quick reality check?

Neal once got 40 riding shotgun with Crosby. Nice. The last 2 years he is average 24 goals and 42 points in 70 games.

Brouwer, the 2 years before coming to Calgary, averaged 19 goals and 41 points.

These things are not so different.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ok. I know we love to call Neal a sniper. And talk about 20 goal seasons. Can we get a quick reality check?

Neal once got 40 riding shotgun with Crosby. Nice. The last 2 years he is average 24 goals and 42 points in 70 games.

Brouwer, the 2 years before coming to Calgary, averaged 19 goals and 41 points.

These things are not so different.

The point is valid, but for me the key is how they score goals. Neal is a sniper. Brouwer was never that. What Neal doesn't have is other attributes that allows him to product beyond that 40-50 point total. But in terms of a guy who can find the back of the net, when given a good look, I do believe he is that. But he needs help driving the offense. He doesn't drive it himself.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

How many guys will truly have career seasons under Gulutzan? Maybe Backlund? I suspect Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk etc will all fat surpass the good years they had. Monahan and Gaudreau took a step back in GG’s first year before taking a step forward last year.

Ferland.
Hamilton
Tkachuk
Monahan
Gaudreau

All players that did well under GG. Again, you can't blame him for the lack of progression player while dismissing that other players did well.
I'm glad GG is gone. Let's just be clear on that.
But I think in the context of individual player performance, I don't blame him for Sam's lack of production.
It is amazing to me how many goals he's had called back so there's some luck. But I agree with Bingo it is largely mental and that has manifested itself in a player that gets down on himself, and then makes really bad decisions in the game in a desperate attempt to have an impact (e.g. really bad penalties).

[EldrickOnIce]

Neal has ten 20 goal seasons.
Brouwer has three.
That's a little different

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ok. I know we love to call Neal a sniper. And talk about 20 goal seasons. Can we get a quick reality check?

Neal once got 40 riding shotgun with Crosby. Nice. The last 2 years he is average 24 goals and 42 points in 70 games.

Brouwer, the 2 years before coming to Calgary, averaged 19 goals and 41 points.

These things are not so different.

I don't see anyone expecting his Crosby production. We are hoping for his Haula/Fisher/Ribiero production. He's scored 20 every year, in quite varied situations.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Neal has ten 20 goal seasons.
Brouwer has three.
That's a little different

The point is not what Neal did years ago, it is the state of the asset that Calgary signed

Because Jagr has done a lot more than both of them and he isn’t even in the league now

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't see anyone expecting his Crosby production. We are hoping for his Haula/Fisher/Ribiero production. He's scored 20 every year, in quite varied situations.

Right. See, when he was signed, I was expecting a good chance at 30 plus if he was put on the top line. Then you have a sniper, a guy who can shoot out in to the sniper opportunity

But the idea that you put the same guy with Bennett, or whomever Neal plays with and he saves or makes a career? Well, these are different things

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The point is not what Neal did years ago, it is the state of the asset that Calgary signed

Because Jagr has done a lot more than both of them and he isn’t even in the league now

You are exaggerating a bit, no? Neil had 25 goals last year with Haula as his centre. 23 with Fisher the year before. And he's 31, not 45.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Right. See, when he was signed, I was expecting a good chance at 30 plus if he was put on the top line. Then you have a sniper, a guy who can shoot out in to the sniper opportunity

But the idea that you put the same guy with Bennett, or whomever Neal plays with and he saves or makes a career? Well, these are different things

Oh, sure, I don't think he or Bennett "saves" the other. I think Neil is best served with Backlund and Tkachuk. I think he'd have his usual production. Czarnik is pretty good and energetic, but not a proven scorer.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ferland.
Hamilton
Tkachuk
Monahan
Gaudreau

All players that did well under GG. Again, you can't blame him for the lack of progression player while dismissing that other players did well.
I'm glad GG is gone. Let's just be clear on that.
But I think in the context of individual player performance, I don't blame him for Sam's lack of production.
It is amazing to me how many goals he's had called back so there's some luck. But I agree with Bingo it is largely mental and that has manifested itself in a player that gets down on himself, and then makes really bad decisions in the game in a desperate attempt to have an impact (e.g. really bad penalties).

This is something you are steadfast on and man, could we not disagree more. Gulutzan took a guy who needed coaching and failed him.

I have documented elsewhere Bennett’s and Monahan’s Year 1, and subsequent line mates.

The top line is the top line. They dragged Ferland along.
Tkachuk played well with the same linemates that Bennett had in year 1. Bennett stalled with Bollig, Hathaway, etc.

Also have discussed the number of players that were flat or worse under GG - for example on D - Hamilton, Gio, Brodie

The team as a whole did way, way worse, and very few players, even if they did well, did better.

The coach decides the linenates, minutes, and situation a player is put in. Damn right you can point at a coach for a mishandled player underachieving.

Unless Bennett wrestled the lineup card and crayon out of Gulutzan’s hand, he wasn’t going to be given a good opportunity.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Is it all on him or is at least some of it on the horrendous coach that pissed away the last 2 years of hockey in this town?

Let’s see where Bennett (and Brodie for that matter) are at the end of the year. I think Gulutzan forcing Bennett to Centre in his second year eroded the confidence he had built up but was too stubborn to change things. The same can be said by forcing Brodie to play the left side when he has said several times that he prefers the right side but we had to watch 2 full seasons of him being terrible thanks to the last coach we had on the team.

Players own a large portion of the accountability but let’s not forget who coached this team the past 2 years and how both players performed under Hartley was completely different

I remember a lot of posters on CP really supporting this.

that long term bennett would be better served learning how to properly play centre and work on his defensive responsibilites, then move up the lineup as he got better.
there were more comparisons with Draisaitl at the time, too. where the flames were doing it right with Bennett while the oilers were stupid by using drai on the wing instead developing him as a centre.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

I remember a lot of posters on CP really supporting this.

that long term bennett would be better served learning how to properly play centre and work on his defensive responsibilites, then move up the lineup as he got better.
there were more comparisons with Draisaitl at the time, too. where the flames were doing it right with Bennett while the oilers were stupid by using drai on the wing instead developing him as a centre.

A lot said that Bennett was a true centre, his skill set was that of a centre, and he was drafted as such.

I think they figured that he should (a) be centre and (b) get Gaudreau as a winger. Because, in reality, moving him to C on a team with Monahan and Backlund was not going to deliver good linemates.

[Brick]

I would like to see Bennett at centre on the 2nd line with Tkachuk & Neal on the wings.

Alternatively, Jankowski.