[Trade] Habs acquire rights to UFA Joel Edmundson for 5th. UPD: Signed 4 yrs x $3.5 mil

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

https://twitter.com/user/status/1304876387032084480

Edmundson is slow, isn't particularly agile, and is constantly behind the play. He has not had a positively impactful season in his career and, at worst, he is a significant liability.

I knew that your rebuttal (and original statement) would be entirely based on stats.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

https://twitter.com/user/status/1304876387032084480

Edmundson is slow, isn't particularly agile, and is constantly behind the play. He has not had a positively impactful season in his career and, at worst, he is a significant liability.

This is the problem with looking only at advanced stats metrics for stay at home defensemen. It doesn't give you the full picture. This is why I have no respect for opinions of people who only look advanced stats

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I knew that your rebuttal (and original statement) would be entirely based on stats.

This is why I'd never waste my time reading the articles he writes. He's basically a worse version of Kent Wilson, who is a complete buffoon.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by dammage79

My point was teams being active and yet again so far the Flames are doing squat to fix their problems. I'm out of patience waiting for tree to actually do something...anything to get things started.

Doesn't have to be these types of trades, but a coaching decision would be nice.

Well the off season hasn't begun, there has been minor trades so far. I'd rather the Flames get a full read on the market rather than making trades for the sake of it to please fans.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

Well the off season hasn't begun, there has been minor trades so far. I'd rather the Flames get a full read on the market rather than making trades for the sake of it to please fans.

not to mention we have no idea when next season will even be at this point

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

Well the off season hasn't begun, there has been minor trades so far. I'd rather the Flames get a full read on the market rather than making trades for the sake of it to please fans.

26 of the 31 teams in the league are available to trade with right now.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

Well the off season hasn't begun, there has been minor trades so far. I'd rather the Flames get a full read on the market rather than making trades for the sake of it to please fans.

Assessing the market is very important, yes. And rushing into things is never a good idea.

Having said that, it is also important to always be assessing the current environment and determining if there are opportunities to exploit. If there are potential advantages to getting a jump on the off-season, then they should be all over it.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

This is the problem with looking only at advanced stats metrics for stay at home defensemen. It doesn't give you the full picture. This is why I have no respect for opinions of people who only look advanced stats

I have respect for everyone's opinions regardless but the fact is if you look at advanced stats as only part of the equation he's pretty well in the basement needing the eye test to absolutely blow you away just to bring him up to an average defenseman. Those stats are absolutely abysmal.

[dammage79]

Habs still have 11 picks in this draft. They literally have enough draft capital to throw up at the wall.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I knew that your rebuttal (and original statement) would be entirely based on stats.

Yup, calling Edmundson slow and constantly behind the play is purely a statistical argument.

And even so, dismissing stats-oriented argumentation is dumb because what’s the alternative? Gut feelings? Assumptions? “I think this guy’s good and he’s paid like he’s good and he plays a lot of minutes so he must be good”? Granted that’s me being hyperbolic but it’s kind of the other end of the spectrum as you saying I post arguments “entirely based on stats.” That’s not true.

There are stay-at-home defenders who actually prevent high-danger spots on net and goals against. The Canes and Blues bled badly whenever they played Edmundson. He doesn’t pass the eye test and he doesn’t pass the stats test. The Blues won the Cup largely in spite of him (and keep in mind, they had some truly excellent defensive defencemen on that team who actually prevented shots!)

Saying “ahhhhh, stats” isn’t a good argument when the stats I’m looking at are basic things like scoring chances, shot quality, defensive zone faceoffs and quality in competition. You can call them stats — I just call those things “hockey”

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Yup, calling Edmundson slow and constantly behind the play is purely a statistical argument.

And even so, dismissing stats-oriented argumentation is dumb because what’s the alternative? Gut feelings? Assumptions? “I think this guy’s good and he’s paid like he’s good and he plays a lot of minutes so he must be good”? Granted that’s me being hyperbolic but it’s kind of the other end of the spectrum as you saying I post arguments “entirely based on stats.” That’s not true.

There are stay-at-home defenders who actually prevent high-danger spots on net and goals against. The Canes and Blues bled badly whenever they played Edmundson. He doesn’t pass the eye test and he doesn’t pass the stats test. The Blues won the Cup largely in spite of him (and keep in mind, they had some truly excellent defensive defencemen on that team who actually prevented shots!)

Saying “ahhhhh, stats” isn’t a good argument when the stats I’m looking at are basic things like scoring chances, shot quality, defensive zone faceoffs and quality in competition. You can call them stats — I just call those things “hockey”

Yup, that's the only alternative to fully relying on stats.

[Buff]

What where his advanced stats for the previous year or years? Was it just a bad year or was it a re-occuring trend? He was talked about favourably during the Blues Cup run so I'm curious.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's not a race to a deadline, it's a race with other teams.

I think 5 or 6 defenders were moved in 72 hours last off-season.

Trades are dictated by the market, if you wait too long to make deals the market dries up.

The flames shouldn't have been in in edmunson and they probably have no one interested in the rights to Brodie or hamonic, but there IS movement in the market right now and teams will strike first at the assets they have at the top of their lists and eventually there won't be any takers.


Washington wasted no time with Reirden because they wanted to position themselves at the front of the line for coaching candidates.

If you can’t get the guy you want right away, you shouldn’t settle for a guy you don’t really want because you can sign him quicker. You work harder on the guys you want.

[GioforPM]

IMO advanced stats are useful, and so is the eye test. What would trouble me is if the two don’t match up. Then you have to ask which is painting a more correct picture for the specific player, and you have to dive deeper into player usage and other intangibles.

[TheScorpion]

The Blues’ cup run year was by far his best year and yet only Robby Fabbri (who seldom played) was outscored at a higher rate than Edmundson was in the playoffs en route to the Cup win. (It’s a little weird because that 22-game playoff sample is his strongest sample by many analytics but his execution still remained as poor as his usual output). Prior to last year his numbers were awful.

He was a brutal fit in Carolina and fans were not happy with his play one bit.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1304914148199931907

https://twitter.com/user/status/1304880181040025605

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yup, that's the only alternative to fully relying on stats.

I said in my post that that was me hyperbolically theorizing the opposite extreme to you saying I argue entirely based on stats. Which I don’t. Nobody in this thread is.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yup, that's the only alternative to fully relying on stats.

Not only do I not think Scorp relies entirely on stats, but he even said he was being hyperbolic and representing the very opposite side of the spectrum.

I don’t know about Edmundson either way, but I do find an argument for or against Edmundson that includes something tangible to back it up more compelling than “quality!”

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

26 of the 31 teams in the league are available to trade with right now.

I suspect at least 4 (being the teams just eliminated) are still undergoing their own internal evaluations.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

This is the problem with looking only at advanced stats metrics for stay at home defensemen. It doesn't give you the full picture. This is why I have no respect for opinions of people who only look advanced stats

At least Scorp is giving ONE picture, unlike you and Enoch who’s been completely dismissive but bringing nothing of substance to back your argument at all.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

At least Scorp is giving ONE picture, unlike you and Enoch who’s been completely dismissive but bringing nothing of substance to back your argument at all.

We don't need to bring anything to the argument, because we didn't make a claim that requires backing up, like Scorpion did ('one of the worst in the league'). You make a statement like that, you are going to be challenged on it.

Because that's how discussions work.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Not only do I not think Scorp relies entirely on stats, but he even said he was being hyperbolic and representing the very opposite side of the spectrum.

I don’t know about Edmundson either way, but I do find an argument for or against Edmundson that includes something tangible to back it up more compelling than “quality!”

Well, no one made that argument, so I guess you're good.