Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm a fan.

I don't see a lot of joy finding the downside in most things when being a fan. I hope to do my best to stay as objective and planted as I can be, but I certainly don't look to be the negative guy in most topics.

You thrive on it.

Fill your boots.

Lol, no, I enjoy the highs as much as anyone, I just don't feel the need to manufacture them to enjoy the team.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I don't think there is much upside with Lucic and Neal will probably get 20-30 goals on the Oilers. Seems like Tre did the Oilers a favour

Even if he does (which I don't think he will), overall I don't think they get any better as a team. Which is what people are missing here.

I think 20-30 goals means you're giving him significant minutes, which means you're taking those minutes away from a less-slow, more responsible player (relatively speaking), and also means you're probably paying for it at the other end of the ice. Because outside of the shot that we hardly even got to see, the dude is no good everywhere else in his game. And if he is also no good in the locker room then it's a match made in heaven in Edmonton.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

transplant -

Again, Lucic played last year with his primary line mates being Kassian and Brodziak.

You know why that is? Cause he wasnt and isnt good enough to play with anyone else.

Brodziak put up all of nine (9) points all year. That’s not so good. Certainly not comparable to Ryan and Bennett
Kassian put up 5 of his 26 points in the first half, then 21 in the second half when his primary line mates were the duo of McJesus and Draisaitl

I dont believe he is good enough to play with a very average Bennett and Ryan either. In fact, Im almost sure of it.

Yeah, Lucic’s results were horrendous. But he played on a really bad team where the offense runs through one guy. And he wasn’t playing with that guy. And he definitely didn’t have D the caliber of the Flames D helping to move the puck up ice.

All true, but irrelevant to his own abilities.

Lucic’s results actually became horrendous consistent with deployment. He was a 50 point guy his first year. He had 27 points the first half of 17-18 playing with the Nuge, then he dropped. Looked like the blender was out as he started playing sometimes with Cammalleri on his last legs, Khaira, etc.

Right, and that drop coincided with him being unable to make it around the ice well enough. He isnt getting faster cause the dome ice is better.

You say Ryan and Bennett had issues. After a slow start, Ryan ended up having 38 points, as a bottom 6 Center. I have news for you - that’s not lacking in production.

Yeah Ryan did figure it out...so what?

I mean, the pretty much one dimensional player Neal the Flames thought they were getting had 41 and 44 points his 2 seasons prior to joining the Flames (playing with Perron and Haula).

OK...but whats that got to do with Milan Lucic's abilities as a hockey player?

Lucic is coming in to quite a favourable situation. Even if he isn’t on the top line (which nobody necessarily expects right now), he will have comparably decent linemates and quality D.

The real loser in this deal is probably Kassian. Because people were projecting the Oil using him on the top line. They will probably gift his spot to Neal.

Top line?

Im HOPING he is still able to play 3rd line minutes. Im expecting he plays bottom line minutes when its all said and done though.

I dont think people paid enough attention to him the last year and a half...he is a terrible hockey player. Now is some of that mitigated by the fact he was on the good ship Oiler? Sure...I would agree with that.

But watching him two years ago and even more last yar, he was simply unable to play the game any longer. Maybe his give a crap meter bottomed out too, which is not necessarily a good thing either, but a possibility.

Maybe he finds the fountain of youth and gets better after a steady decline on a body that is way way more worn than the "older" James Neal. That would be awesome. Its just almost 100% unlikely though...then you add in the contract structure...and...well.

[Bingo]

Lucic article

Click on the charts to see them more clearly

Making sense of the Lucic trade

[DeluxeMoustache]

So he got demoted mid year 17-18 to play with plugs because he wasn’t good enough to play with anyone else, as evidenced by his 27 first half points, playing with the Nuge.

Got it.

You are aware that Edmonton is no good, right?

The reason I pointed out Neal’s stats immediately after Ryan’s was to question your characterization of Ryan as not productive.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

The angle I am going with is that Edwards cares little about the cap and more about what he spends. He hates paying 8 million for Brouwer and Raymond not playing for him. Treliving had 23 million in future committments to a contract that looked destined to be bought out. Now its 14 and thats a number the owner likes better.

I doubt this trade had anything to do with the owners saving money. Sure, that's a bonus for them but as long as the Flames are not losing money I doubt they worry much about it.

The talk when Treliving signed his contract extension was his complete control of any player moves. So as far as I am concerned, the talk about the Flames never buying out Neal next off-season because the owners would never allow it is BS.

[Flash Walken]

Tranny, I don't think you're really engaging with the arguments presented here.

I would've assumed you of all posters would understand the impact chemistry in the locker room has on the on-ice product. How do you possibly come back with a player you scratched in the most important game of the year?

I don't really understand what your argument here is other than lucic sucks. I agree, but then Neal also sucked, so I'm pretty indifferent.

I don't know if it's possible to be worse than Neal was last year frankly. I would've preferred Lazar in the lineup.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

And this is why these advanced stats mean so very little at times. People use them to justify players that simply are not good enough to be playing though. (And no Im not saying you are doing this, but it happens with great regularity)

Over the course of the last 2 years and amongst forwards who played as many or more games than him, he ranks 60th of 63 in offensive production. Against all players of any amount of games...220th overall.

I mean who cares if he "drives the play", if there is nothing to show for it?

Just based on his last year and a half, we can expect 19-31 goals if he plays every game in the next 4 seasons.

This is a horrendous player with a worse contract that is almost impossible to get out from under.

I get he brings the most serious snarl in the game as a part of his game, and I LOVE that part of things but here is the rub...he isnt good enough to play enough to use that snarl to any sort of advantage.

This was BT being so desperate to address the missing toughness on the team, he was willing to over look the much more important factors of the player he was bringing in. All in hopes of changing the teams fortunes in a playoff series that it may or may not be part of come next April.

I hope that some of the enthusiasm he reportedly has from this deal and a change of scenery suddenly sees him remember how to play the game again, but I'm sure as hell not holding my breath on it. Especially when it looks like he will be playing with Ryan and Bennett...two other guys that are lacking to varying degrees in production totals themselves.

Couldn't disagree more.

These metrics are hard to fake. You can't coach them to look good. Players either get out played or they don't when they're on the ice.

A player that gets out played has to be hidden.

A player that doesn't can move up and down the roster and do his part in keeping the puck moving downhill instead of uphill.

Nobody is thinking Lucic is a 20 goal scorer this season, but if both players don't get top six minutes (Neal and Lucic), the latter if clearly better at contributing to the back and forth hockey in the bottom six without creating a tire fire.

The playoff series against Colorado was clear ... Neal and Jankowski couldn't hold their own at all five on five.

Lucic's numbers say he can, which makes him a better fit on the bottom six.

As a guy that coached hockey for years .... I CARE that a line that isn't producing isn't getting mopped up. Let me third line hold the other team in check and the top six will take care of goal scoring.

There is no spin needed in numbers that suggest Lucic can play both ways despite his offence drying up. That gives him two tricks instead of one ... holding his own five on five, and being scary when warranted. Neal was a one trick pony unlikely to ever get said trick out of the barn.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Your reaction was more than a little over the top. Losing your mind over it would be a fairly apt description of your first reaction.

Opinions are great. It’s the being unnecessarily over dramatic that people would have an issue with. “Darkest day of the franchise”. Hyperbole to the extreme. It was a bad contract for bad contract. We traded one of the worst forwards the flames have iced in the past 5 years. Your reaction was ridiculous and we’re calling a spade a spade. If you can’t handle people’s reactions to your overreactions then I’m not sure what to suggest for ya.

And who are you? The expert in all this?

You decide what the proper reaction is now do you?

I still think it will go down as ONE OF the darkest days in franchise history (which is what I said but who cares about being correct.) because of the long term implications on the salary cap and how it helps out the biggest rival of the team.

Again thats my opinion and it is niether over the top nor dramatic or ridiculous or any other adjective you choose to apply to it because you and others disagree with it. Again, you/others have their own beliefs on what this means, thats fine. Im not calling them ridiculous or dramatic or stupid or telling them to get out of the house etc etc etc.

As for your suggestions...im good thanks.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't know if it's possible to be worse than Neal was last year frankly.

Yet before the trade, 95% or more of CP would have said that Lucic was much, much worse.

What a difference a day makes.

Now I get why this is the case, but posters (of all teams) needs to understand that they are often "homers" in judging such matters.

What makes them not now being "homers" in stating that Lucic is now the better player?

And I'm not intending to single you out, I have no idea what your previous opinion was.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Ped

I don't really get why it's difficult to Understand that people are allowed to not like a move and have valid reasons for it.

Come on ...

it's a two way street dude. Just as easy to say people aren't allowed to not hate this deal that have valid reasons for it.

[djsFlames]

It's pretty mixed reactions in here and no one is declaring that one side can't express their views lol. We're discussing it, as the thread is intended for.

Leave it to CPers to get riled up for make believe reasons.

[zamler]

I'm baffled why some are trying so hard to sugarcoat this turd of a deal. Lucic is not a good hockey player and was an albatross around the Oilers neck why bail them out?

The answer seems to be, Neal HAD to go. Then buy him out, bench him, who cares just don't do the Oilers a solid and fix a big mess they had.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Lol, no, I enjoy the highs as much as anyone, I just don't feel the need to manufacture them to enjoy the team.

Who does?

There's a reason people have created sayings like glass half full and glass half empty.

They help to explain what side of a tight margin people fall to. If I had a vote on which side you went to as a strong majority the glass would certainly be half full ... may even have a crack and some floating feces in it.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

I would not be surprised if Gaudreau is legitimately excited about having Lucic. Bad contract for bad contract, but Lucic brings an element we sorely lack. I am not concerned about his offensive production. We don’t need it. We desperately need his 3+ hits a game though.

Oh for sure.

I just don’t think it has to be more than that. Some people think it means that there is a soap opera going on behind the scenes. Like it must mean that Gaudreau and others wanted to drive Neal to the airport.

[Strange Brew]

This trade is throwing an anchor to a drowning man. He was probably drowning anyway, but now he’s dead.

Now this team has a $5 million 4th liner for next 4 years. That is really bad but OK, we know what we’ve got. Time to live with it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

It's pretty mixed reactions in here and no one is declaring that one side can't express their views lol. We're discussing it, as the thread is intended for.

Leave it to CPers to get riled up for make believe reasons.

Frankly, this happens on almost opinion forums. A posts opinion. B disagrees. A says "How dare you not allow me to have my opinion"? Or "I'm entitled to my opinion". Or something similar.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Tranny, I don't think you're really engaging with the arguments presented here.

I would've assumed you of all posters would understand the impact chemistry in the locker room has on the on-ice product. How do you possibly come back with a player you scratched in the most important game of the year?

I don't really understand what your argument here is other than lucic sucks. I agree, but then Neal also sucked, so I'm pretty indifferent.

I don't know if it's possible to be worse than Neal was last year frankly. I would've preferred Lazar in the lineup.

Im not advocating that bringing back Neal was the way to go. At all.

i am suggesting that bringing in a guy that cant play any more and with the worst possibly structured contract to get out from under is an even worse way to go. Again, doubling down on the mistake in the first place. It smacks of a desperate GM trying to cover himself.

Obviously there was a rift bad enough between Neal/peters or Neal/other guys in the room, he had to go.

A buy out would have been preferable than this "solution" IMO. Even better a full 50% retained on Neal for the duration of his contract to a team like Ottawa for 3rd would have been better. Whatever the case....this is the worst possible way to go IMO.

Its apparent many don't share that point of view...great. I hope they are right and I hope I am dead wrong. I have merely stated with data and mosreso the old eyeball test, that its very unlikely this plays out any other way than being a debacle for the club. Maybe I am overstating it, but I expected this team to get better. For me, this does no such thing. I think it sends things backwards to be honest, and now with no real way out of it for at least 3 years and much more likely...4.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by transplant99

And who are you? The expert in all this?

You decide what the proper reaction is now do you?

I still think it will go down as ONE OF the darkest days in franchise history (which is what I said but who cares about being correct.) because of the long term implications on the salary cap and how it helps out the biggest rival of the team.

Again thats my opinion and it is niether over the top nor dramatic or ridiculous or any other adjective you choose to apply to it because you and others disagree with it. Again, you/others have their own beliefs on what this means, thats fine. Im not calling them ridiculous or dramatic or stupid or telling them to get out of the house etc etc etc.

As for your suggestions...im good thanks.

You don’t think calling it “one of the darkest days in franchise history’ is being over the top? You’re usually pretty levelheaded, but you’ve lost your mind on this one.

Yes, Lucic has a terrible contract. But so did Neal! You seem to be discounting the fact that Neal has one of the worst contracts in the league as well. With this deal, the Flames added toughness, got a bit of cap space back and got rid of Neal.

The oilers didn’t get better, they’re probably about the same, but with less cap space. The Flames got tougher and gained a bit of space. This was a doofus for doofus deal that barely moved the needle for either team. Certainly not worth losing your mind over like you have for the last 3 days.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Yet before the trade, 95% or more of CP would have said that Lucic was much, much worse.

What a difference a day makes.

Now I get why this is the case, but posters (of all teams) needs to understand that they are often "homers" in judging such matters.

What makes them not now being "homers" in stating that Lucic is now the better player?

And I'm not intending to single you out, I have no idea what your previous opinion was.

People on this site hated James Neal and most (not going to make up a number like 95% like you did) were convinced his contract was an albatross. Lucic has slid and is equally bad in Edmonton.

I was shocked when I read Staples article before the deal, assumed he was wrong on Lucic's underlying numbers, looked them up and saw he was right. Shocked me.

There are lots of facts to not hate this deal if you consider Neal a sunk cost, don't accuse people of flipping for pointing that out.