06-26-2019, 02:03 PM
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#61
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On Jessica Albas chest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incogneto
Poison told me he is worth multiple 1st rounders.
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Show me where i said that smart guy.
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06-26-2019, 02:08 PM
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#62
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus
I don't see the point in trading him if the return is only mid round picks. It's not like he's useless. He is still a pretty versatile player that provides some secondary scoring. Sure, you free up some salary but it's not like the Flames are exactly ripe with wingers ready to produce 40 plus points in that role.
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Depends what you think of Bennett, Mangiapane and Dube. I’d be comfortable with any of them taking Frolik’s spot. We have the ready young players.
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06-26-2019, 02:11 PM
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#63
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Franchise Player
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Frolik's issue was consistency. It wasn't CP that healthy scratched the guy.
He is going to be tough to move since, as many expect, there will be bargains in free agency. Any conversation I imagine starts with the other GM asking Treliving how much salary he will retain.
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06-26-2019, 02:13 PM
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#64
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jg13
Similar situation with Glencross except he went at the deadline and Frolik will likely move before the season starts but Glencross brought back a 2nd and 3rd.. both coming off similar point totals the year previous.
I wouldn't be shocked to pick up a 3rd for Frolik.
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Isn't Stempniak a better comparable?
He fetched the Flames a 3rd round pick and I believe he only had 1 year left on his contract at the time. He also had similar production to Frolik.
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06-26-2019, 02:14 PM
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#65
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Uranus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
So, what do you see as the solution, here? The Flames are in a situation where they need to shed salary before the start of the season. Their options for doing so are limited to either trading high-salary players for picks or prospects, or buying out players on expensive contracts.
Ideally, the Flames would trade Stone and Neal and that would be the end of it. But the practical reality is that these players are currently not appealing to anyone to accept in a trade. This means moving salary attached to a player with some value—hence 2020. pending UFAs TJ Brodie and Michael Frolik.
If there is a better option here I am all ears. What do you think the Flames should do?
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Certainly dumping a key cog for nothing shouldn't be in the plans when this team has a window to win right now. If you can get something of value by packaging up players like Frolik and Brodie that you otherwise could not get alone, then you go for that. A player like Bennett is certainly not filling those shoes and it is way too much to ask of guys like Dube or Mangiapane to shoulder that role until they actually are regular, everyday NHLers for more than a few weeks.
Long story short - it's a fools errand to start deleting guys like Frolik for nothing to simply clear cap space. An actual hockey trade (Brodie + Frolik or some combination) and possibly a buyout of Stone can easily clear room, provided the Flames are willing to part with a guy like Kylington or a pick to sweeten the pot as well.
__________________
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Last edited by Hot_Flatus; 06-26-2019 at 02:17 PM.
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06-26-2019, 02:16 PM
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#66
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On Jessica Albas chest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
Frolik's issue was consistency. It wasn't CP that healthy scratched the guy.
He is going to be tough to move since, as many expect, there will be bargains in free agency. Any conversation I imagine starts with the other GM asking Treliving how much salary he will retain.
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And who do you feel on our current roster could take his spot on the second line and produce more consistently?
Answer: No one.
So if what everyone is saying is true and we get peanuts for him and in fact have to retain salary, what is the point?
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06-26-2019, 02:17 PM
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#67
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poison
And who do you feel on our current roster could take his spot on the second line and produce more consistently?
Answer: No one.
So if what everyone is saying is true and we get peanuts for him and in fact have to retain salary, what is the point?
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To re-sign Tkachuk, Rittich, and to fill out the roster without exceeding the salary cap?
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06-26-2019, 02:18 PM
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#68
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First round-bust
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: speculating about AHL players
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poison
And who do you feel on our current roster could take his spot on the second line and produce more consistently?
Answer: No one.
So if what everyone is saying is true and we get peanuts for him and in fact have to retain salary, what is the point?
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The point is that Matthew Tkachuk and Dave Rittich need to be paid. That's it. It's an unfortunate, less-than-ideal reality that Frolik needs to be traded, but just because a reality is sad doesn't stop it from being true.
And while you may feel that it is unlikely that any of Dube, Bennett, Mangiapane, or even Czarnik can take Frolik's role with success, it is probably true that by the time Frolik is 33 or 34, he will have declined and at least one of those players will have improved to the point where it is a substantially net-positive move by the Flames.
__________________
"This has been TheScorpion's shtick for years. All these hot takes, clickbait nonsense just to feed his social media algorithms." –Tuco
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06-26-2019, 02:18 PM
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#69
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On Jessica Albas chest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
To re-sign Tkachuk, Rittich, and to fill out the roster without exceeding the salary cap?
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So then maybe we move out from a place of strength and abundance? Like the defence?
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06-26-2019, 02:19 PM
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#70
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood
My goodness the legend of Sam Bennett now has him as a better two way forward than Micheal Frolik?
Also I'm sick of Bennett apologists acting like he has crappy linemates as to the reason why he cannot do anything. The line of Tkachuk-Backlund-Bennett was the 4th most used line combo at even strength for the Flames last season.
17.74% EV GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - LINDHOLM,ELIAS - MONAHAN,SEAN
9.58% EV BACKLUND,MIKAEL - FROLIK,MICHAEL - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
4.99% EV HATHAWAY,GARNET - MANGIAPANE,ANDREW - RYAN,DEREK
4.26% EV BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
3.45% EV BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - NEAL,JAMES
2.15% EV BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK
1.72% EV GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
1.56% EV BACKLUND,MIKAEL - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
1.50% EV BACKLUND,MIKAEL - NEAL,JAMES - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
Further to that, Sam Bennetts most frequent linemates last season were Tkachuk and Backlund.
21.76% EV BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
17.60% EV BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - NEAL,JAMES
10.97% EV BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK
4.01% EV BENNETT,SAM - NEAL,JAMES - RYAN,DEREK
3.47% EV BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN
3.25% EV BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL - RYAN,DEREK
3.04% EV BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - NEAL,JAMES
I understand Frolik isn't happy and has asked to be moved. I'm just a little shocked at how underrated Frolik is being sold around here. This team isnt as good with him subtracted from the roster. Not only does he check the top opposing lines, he still manufactures points and is a big part of our PK. Not to mention the chemistry he has continually shown with Tkachuk and Backlund. He will be missed in many ways.
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Okay, I should not have said Bennett was a better two-way player than Frolik. I stated that too definitively. Instead, I should have said the chart I posted suggested Bennett was a better two-way player. In reality, while you could argue that Frolik playing with Backlund and Tkachuk during 53.34% of his even-strength ice time should give him better on-ice results than Bennett, he does, in fact, have better results.
Nevertheless, I am not a Bennett apologist. In the past, I have criticized him when he has not played well. It is currently my opinion that he has improved. It is to the point where I don't think Bennett needs any apologists. He's a fine player. As long as we are not expecting offensive greatness from him in the way that Tkachuk, Monahan, or Gaudreau have provided, I think we can accept him as an effective middle-six option.
Moreover, I did not say that Frolik was a bad player. I like Frolik a lot, and I still think he is a good player. However, in the current environment, the Flames will probably have to trade away either Frolik or Brodie to become cap compliant. As I like both Frolik and Brodie, the Flames are going to have to get rid of a player I like.
Obviously, it would be way better if the Flames could get someone to take Neal or Stone, but I don't think that's going to happen without the Flames sending out valuable assets (I think the Flames need to start making more picks).
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06-26-2019, 02:20 PM
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#71
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
...Any conversation I imagine starts with the other GM asking Treliving how much salary he will retain.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus
...An actual hockey trade (Brodie + Frolik or some combination) and possibly a buyout of Stone can easily clear room...
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I expect that Frolik's actual value lies somewhere between these two options. The Flames won't need to retain salary, and they won't get NHL player in a hockey trade in return.
I still think it will be close to a third round pick, bearing in mind that projects to be a late pick.
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06-26-2019, 02:20 PM
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#72
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On Jessica Albas chest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion
The point is that Matthew Tkachuk and Dave Rittich need to be paid. That's it. It's an unfortunate, less-than-ideal reality that Frolik needs to be traded, but just because a reality is sad doesn't stop it from being true.
And while you may feel that it is unlikely that any of Dube, Bennett, Mangiapane, or even Czarnik can take Frolik's role with success, it is probably true that by the time Frolik is 33 or 34, he will have declined and at least one of those players will have improved to the point where it is a substantially net-positive move by the Flames.
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We only have him for one more year. Whats wrong with letting him ride out his contract and deal Brodie for the same cap space.
Last edited by Poison; 06-26-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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06-26-2019, 02:22 PM
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#73
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#1 Goaltender
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I think I would rather just buy out Stone, bury Neal, and maybe carry a 22 man roster in order to keep 3M together in such an important year.
I’ve yet to see enough from any of our replacement options that leads me to be confident Frolik’s role is getting backfilled properly this season.
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06-26-2019, 02:26 PM
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#74
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poison
So then maybe we move out from a place of strength and abundance? Like the defence?
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More than likely it will be both. In the aggregate, Brodie is a more valuable player to the Flames than Frolik. While he likely returns more in a trade, his absence also potentially has a greater impact. It makes sense to move the contract that is 1) moveable, and which 2) does not significantly affect the team on the ice. There are good reasons to believe that those conditions make Frolik the natural candidate to be moved.
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06-26-2019, 02:29 PM
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#75
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On Jessica Albas chest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
More than likely it will be both. In the aggregate, Brodie is a more valuable player to the Flames than Frolik. While he likely returns more in a trade, his absence also potentially has a greater impact. It makes sense to move the contract that is 1) moveable, and which 2) does not significantly affect the team on the ice. There are good reasons to believe that those conditions make Frolik the natural candidate to be moved.
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I disagree. It was shown for a good part of the year we have a more than capable Brodie replacement in Andersson. Where as i didnt see anyone jump into Froliks spot and show they can do the same or better.
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06-26-2019, 02:30 PM
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#76
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Acerbic Cyberbully
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: back in Chilliwack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poison
I disagree. It was shown for a good part of the year we have a more than capable Brodie replacement in Andersson. Where as i didnt see anyone jump into Froliks spot and show they can do the same or better.
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Yeah, I love Andersson but this is highly debatable.
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06-26-2019, 02:31 PM
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#77
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hyperbole Chamber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion
The point is that Matthew Tkachuk and Dave Rittich need to be paid. That's it. It's an unfortunate, less-than-ideal reality that Frolik needs to be traded, but just because a reality is sad doesn't stop it from being true.
And while you may feel that it is unlikely that any of Dube, Bennett, Mangiapane, or even Czarnik can take Frolik's role with success, it is probably true that by the time Frolik is 33 or 34, he will have declined and at least one of those players will have improved to the point where it is a substantially net-positive move by the Flames.
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We should have thought ahead about this when we drafted Tkachuk. We could have traded up to get Puljujarvi instead and then we’d have tons of cap room to extend Frolik.
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06-26-2019, 02:39 PM
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#78
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On Jessica Albas chest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Textcritic
Yeah, I love Andersson but this is highly debatable.
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I dont think there is much debate at all to that as he literally took his spot as Gios D partner.
Even if you want to look at it that way we also have Valimaki on his way up the depth chart too.
Basically more viable, legitimate options on the roster to fill in Brodies spot as opposed to Froliks.
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06-26-2019, 02:42 PM
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#79
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poison
I dont think there is much debate at all to that as he literally took his spot as Gios D partner.
Even if you want to look at it that way we also have Valimaki on his way up the depth chart too.
Basically more viable, legitimate options on the roster to fill in Brodies spot as opposed to Froliks.
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The fact Peters put Andersson with Gio when he shuffled the D doesn't make Andersson = Brodie. It means that Peters thought that was a decent fit when he shuffled.
I don't disagree that Brodie is the Dman who will get a decent return and will also be most able to be replaced by another guy on the roster, or a comination thereof. But the premise that Andersson "took" Brodie's spot is not well founded.
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06-26-2019, 02:48 PM
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#80
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus
Certainly dumping a key cog for nothing shouldn't be in the plans when this team has a window to win right now. If you can get something of value by packaging up players like Frolik and Brodie that you otherwise could not get alone, then you go for that. A player like Bennett is certainly not filling those shoes and it is way too much to ask of guys like Dube or Mangiapane to shoulder that role until they actually are regular, everyday NHLers for more than a few weeks.
Long story short - it's a fools errand to start deleting guys like Frolik for nothing to simply clear cap space. An actual hockey trade (Brodie + Frolik or some combination) and possibly a buyout of Stone can easily clear room, provided the Flames are willing to part with a guy like Kylington or a pick to sweeten the pot as well.
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Frolik is far from a “key cog”. Draft picks aren’t nothing.
The hyperbole doesn’t help your argument.
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