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Old 07-07-2020, 09:49 AM   #61
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Sure, yeah, I get it, however this is a hockey message board to lay out ideas, thoughts and opinions... like I am doing. I’m definitely not at all “frustrated”, and the insinuation is both hilarious and bizarre. Again I’ll repeat it for clarity but I don’t know if it’s fair to say players should or shouldn’t be judged for opting out. There could very well be some asinine and ridiculous reasons for some players to opting out. Just like how there could be some good / legitimate ones. Since we’ll probably never know the reality one way or the other, I guess we’re all left to simply speculate which as you know happens all the time with the highest profile athletes and celebrities we have made these people out to be.

It’s similar to say, not being allowed to have an opinion about what a celebrity does or doesn’t do. Now you can sit there and say who are you to judge on your high and mighty stance, but I’m not sure all the money, power, fame and influence these people have should come free or more to the point, that just because they are celebrities and we’re not allowed to judge anything or anyone anymore because of hurt feelings or... something? Reality check time. Everybody judges everybody, all the time, every day. So people can stomp their feet and say “who are you to judge” all you want but opinions are opinions and people think?

So why is it that people believe the players and the NHL should be allowed to have it all ways. Have their cake and eat it too? Are they not extremely wealthy for their craft, on the backs of fans? Who pays these salaries ultimately? Why do people pay so much money to watch these specific players? It’s because they’re the best at what they do. We know that. So should fans be okay with forking out similar dollars for suboptimal players? Isn’t that what the NHL markets, that it’s the best league in the world because it has the best players? Or is it possibly the best collection of players that feel like their up to it?

I think the NHL and pro-sports is in for a wild reality check because you’re spot on, there are more important things in life and COVID really has taught many people that. It’s also going to reallocate entertainment dollars. So if I’m a multimillionaire athlete you bet I should be feeling crazy pressure to play to preserve the business model as best as possible. Anyway fun to speculate and think about and if a player decides to stay home I hope they have a good reason is all my point is, because fans have become accustomed to watching the best and if they don’t, maybe the market will help the NHL decide what’s best. If not, good on them- but also if not- it’ll prove the players value is not what they think it is and IMO would justify reducing salaries but extracting the same value on the product because fans don’t care to watch the best players play. It’s one way or the other here. Do people watch for the best players, or do they watch for the team? Why do they watch? We’ve been long taught that it’s because it’s the players so it is quite an odd stance to have such a take it or leave it attitude depending on who “feels like it” (potentially...).
I think the exception I would have to this is that we shouldn't need to know the reasons why they have chosen to opt out. If all of the reasons for doing so are not largely made public we have no choice but to assume they are all valid. But if some make their reasons known their might be additional pressure on others to defend their position and reasoning- I don't think that's fair. We all have varying degrees of extenuating circumstances in our life that have been exasperated by the current global situation. Just because one isn't privy to every detail of someone's life (whether or not they are a public figure) shouldn't give one the ability to sit in judgement of a decision they are likely making out of fear or concern. Frankly we shouldn't be privy to all of the details of (pick on Johnny again) Gaudreau's Dad's health. They have a right to privacy, they haven't entirely given it up just because they play for our favourite team.
Out of that same respect that we extend them the right of privacy, we should extend them the ability to make this decision for themselves and their families without undue scorn or malice.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:52 AM   #62
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Johnny's father's heart attack was more than 2 years ago (March 2018). Based on what we know of Guy Gaudreau, I'm sure he would have been the first one to tell Johnny to get back to Calgary.

The fact that Johnny was on the ice yesterday should stop any discussion of him opting out. Why would he come back to Calgary if he was going to opt out?
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:59 AM   #63
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I think very few drop out initially. However, I suspect there will be players (especially on some of the fringe teams) who won't be terribly heartbroken if they get eliminated in the play-in round.
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Old 07-07-2020, 09:59 AM   #64
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Weird dig at Brouwer.

His issue wasn't a lack of effort if that's your suggestion by your comparison to Neal. Brouwer seemed like a hard worker that cared, the polar opposite to Neal.
Brouwer cared, he just wasn't nearly as good as his cap hit indicated. But why say no to that contract? It was more on the team for the signing.

Neal wasn't going to be as good as his cap number either, but he consciously gave less than bare minimum when he was put on the ice.
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Old 07-07-2020, 10:01 AM   #65
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I think the whole argument that fans shouldn't be forced to fork out similar dollars for suboptimal players is pretty ridiculous.

Fans aren't going to these games. You aren't paying for anything more than your $20/month Sportsnet subscription (if you dont already have cable, or other streaming, and not including free games, that is). With 24 teams and around 21 players per team, you want what... a $0.03 discount if someone doesn't play? Come on now.
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Old 07-07-2020, 11:30 AM   #66
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If you looked later I explained, I think it is more about being with Family (especially those more at risk) members while this is going on, and being able to support them.

Not at all saying this is the case for Johnny, but thinking about my own situation I am not sure that I would want to guarantee spending three months away from my Father who recently had a heart attack knowing that the potential exists for him to catch it and for things to quickly go wrong. I would prefer to be with him.
I’d be ok with Johnny declining an invite. Certainly the fans should have no expectations of any player showing up. There are no paying customers on this one so it’s not like a holdout.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:40 PM   #67
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That's such a fear-based mentality to have. Why do we assume Johnny thinks this way? All the speculation around him goes to strange places with little to no merit.

No parent would want you to put working at your career on hold for the off chance that their health goes south. There's always that chance, at any time for any one.

My dad had a heart attack a decade ago and is going strong today. It's not an indication of a worse episode to follow shortly if the person takes care of themselves and takes their blood thinning meds.

Besides they would let him out if something did happen anyways.

Just such a silly conversation to have. He's here practicing, that tells you all you need to know.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:49 PM   #68
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I bet the players will call it the sausage fest games or something like that. Months and months away from their girlfriends and wives..
As a single guy spending the summer in the Edmonton area and has dabbled on tinder in the past, I can only imagine how supremely fierce the competition is going to be, with 12 NHL teams just chilling in the city.. I'm picturing a potential date telling me she's tired or something and cancels on me, then I see her out that same night with Tyler Seguin ha-ha

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Old 07-07-2020, 06:53 PM   #69
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I think the whole argument that fans shouldn't be forced to fork out similar dollars for suboptimal players is pretty ridiculous.

Fans aren't going to these games. You aren't paying for anything more than your $20/month Sportsnet subscription (if you dont already have cable, or other streaming, and not including free games, that is). With 24 teams and around 21 players per team, you want what... a $0.03 discount if someone doesn't play? Come on now.
uh well for starters you math doesn't go around at all in the first place but furthermore star players is what I am getting at (because they're the best, but you're being intentionally obtuse for no point and know that because presumably you can read but okay).

But more importantly, why did you intentionally skirt the actual point of my post with respect to whether players opting out and not knowing their rationale doesn't equate to being "allowed" to judge them on that?

I think people should be allowed to have opinions, for right or wrong. That is ultimately my stance.
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Old 07-07-2020, 06:57 PM   #70
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I think the exception I would have to this is that we shouldn't need to know the reasons why they have chosen to opt out. If all of the reasons for doing so are not largely made public we have no choice but to assume they are all valid.
No, we don't at all have to assume they're valid. Why would we have to assume they're valid? Just how we wouldn't have to assume they're invalid reasons. We wouldn't know. It would be just as correct to judge players for opting out as it would be to not judge them for opting out- strictly logically speaking.

This is the problem with always taking the easy way out, or always taking the 'politically correct' way out that you think warrants getting the most 'thanks' on Calgarypuck.

This is why I spoke up in the first place... people saying we shouldn't judge. Wrong. We don't know if we should judge, and these people are celebrities and usually celebrities have to put up with this kind of thing given the money, fame and platforms they have. They are in fact and should be held to higher standards than others, and that is why they may (fairly or unfairly) be judged by people in society.
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:06 PM   #71
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Bob McKenzie mentioned yesterday that as far as he understood, the two most often cited opt out candidates, Max Domi and Kaapo Kakko, both intend to play. However he did mention they could be medically ruled ineligible by doctors due to the presence of a clause in the return-to-play agreement.

“Players who are determined to be at substantial risk of developing a serious illness as a result of exposure to the novel coronavirus shall be deemed to be unfit to play and shall not be permitted to participate either in Phase 3 or 4.”
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:15 PM   #72
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Today, Scott Burnside polled some agents, players, and a GM for their thoughts. As expected, a fully mixed bag. Paywall but some of the quotes:

Will NHL players opt-out of returning to play this summer?

Quote:
“I think there will be people, one or two prominent people,” one veteran agent with a stable of top players predicted.
Quote:
Still, there are those connected to the game who think there is a group of players who just aren’t interested in coming back to play for reasons not connected to medical concerns. They may show up out of guilt or a sense of duty, but they’d rather not.

“I think that there is a group of guys that don’t want this at all,” one GM said. “I think it’s a significant size.”

It’s something that frustrates the GM whose team is among the 24 returning.

“I get pissed off,” he admitted.

Players talk about missing time with their family.

“What have you been doing for the past four months? This is your ####ing job,” he said.
Quote:
Another longtime agent who has many veteran players among his clientele acknowledged there is some frustration with younger players who have complained that this interferes with summer plans made months ago.

“There’s a little disenchantment with certain guys, younger guys, who don’t (know) how hard it is to win it all,” this agent said.
Quote:
A former NHLer and current analyst likewise thinks there is a group of players, especially on teams that had the season progressed normally wouldn’t likely have been in the playoffs, who are less enthralled at returning to play.

“Teams 20-24 or so might have a few opt-outs,” he predicted. “Those guys really didn’t want to play. At this point, most of the players don’t want to, and without penalty, yes, I could see some players declining.”
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:38 PM   #73
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this will go against what I said earlier in this thread (completely against) but opting out of this tournament because it messes with your summer plans (what plans could you possibly have that are unaffected right now!?) is total bull####. I would not accept that as a teammate.
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:59 PM   #74
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Teams 20-24 will last 3-5 games then they can resume summer anyways.

The summer plan thing is pretty lame. Do you love the game you play or not? I mean coming off 4 months of hiatus is quite a break.

Theres no international travel, no events, kerfews and increasing restrictions in the states particularly. What awesome summer plans could you possibly have that trumps playing for the cup in all this mess?

Shows you there's a handful of guys who don't really have their hearts in the game despite being pros at the highest level and compensated handsomely for it.

That would be frustrating to see as a manager.
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Old 07-08-2020, 05:01 PM   #75
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As least James Neal has a legitimate reason to check out of these playoffs.
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Old 07-08-2020, 07:11 PM   #76
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Teams 20-24 will last 3-5 games then they can resume summer anyways.
If I was a GM and had a player opt out with that attitude, he wouldn't play another game for my team. I think every one of the play-in series will be a crapshoot (except Pittsburgh-Montreal) and wouldn't be at all surprised if at least 3 of the 8 series are won by the lower-ranked team.


The only "summer plan" I could see a player being significantly disrupted by the return-to-play would be if someone has a big wedding planned for August ... but I'd imagine anything like that would be cancelled or massively scaled-back already anyway.

Also, I could see it being a tough choice if you had a baby due in the next few weeks. Even though they will allow players to leave the bubble for the birth of a child, there are other issues that can appear in the late stages of a pregnancy that I'm sure a player would want to be around for. Of course, I wouldn't exactly call the birth of your child "summer plans".
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Old 07-08-2020, 07:18 PM   #77
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No player is going to admit to "summer plans" being the reason they opt out. Whoever does 8s going to say they have legitimate health worries and make it sound legit. Saying you dont want to show up because you want to relax is career suicide.
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Old 07-08-2020, 07:32 PM   #78
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Weird dig at Brouwer.

His issue wasn't a lack of effort if that's your suggestion by your comparison to Neal. Brouwer seemed like a hard worker that cared, the polar opposite to Neal.
I’m not sure how I missed this watching Brouwer. Not sure I saw him break a sweat wearing a Flames uniform. Everyone used to bash him constantly on this forum, and for good reason. Then as soon as he left it seems people like to call him a hard worker.
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Old 07-08-2020, 09:07 PM   #79
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No player is going to admit to "summer plans" being the reason they opt out. Whoever does 8s going to say they have legitimate health worries and make it sound legit. Saying you dont want to show up because you want to relax is career suicide.
Yes. Kind of like the UFA who signs the big contract and then says it wasn’t about the money.
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Old 07-08-2020, 09:53 PM   #80
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It did seem like Brouwer got a little too comfortable in his retirement contract.
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