NHL Expansion: The Toronto Legacy Aces

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Pay them enough, they'll waive all the way to the bank.

They didn't for Balsillie. Who had cash at the time.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

The NHL would be immensely profitable in many centers. If there was empirical evidence that a second Toronto franchise would instantly become the second most profitable and second most valuable team in the league why has the NHL not cashed that cheque? IF you had $1 billion to do it, wouldn't you be first in line trying to make it happen?

I think there are a lot of logistical issues to work out. Like you said, territorial rights, TV rights, arena situation, where exactly in the GTA to put the team.

I think there are probably a few current owners that would beg the NHL to relocate their financially fledgling team there first before letting someone else into the old boys club, and the NHL overall probably doesn't want to lose a market or cause a rift in the ownership group over it.

Plus, there are other "new" markets that might be better options to grow the game. Houston, Portland, or maybe even circle back to QC or Hartford where the logistics might not be so complicated.

But none of that takes away from the GTA being able to support a second franchise in theory.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Where are your facts on that? Just because the population is bigger doesn't mean there are more fans in one place vs. the other. Houston, with a storied hockey history, is comparable in population to TO.

Sure, Houston is a big city, but how many people there are hockey fans? Might be hard to measure, but this avidity survey suggested 2%. Toronto at 52%.



https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...e-stanley-cup/

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They didn't for Balsillie. Who had cash at the time.

The Balsillie affair had far more to do with ego and Bettman's US TV footprint than it did with cash.

IIRC, Balsillie ruffled as many feathers as he could in trying to do an end run around the NHL BoG in dealing directly with a couple of team owners (ARZ & PIT, I think) and trying to get an out deal from the town of Glendale. It became an issue of power not money. What Bettman wants, Bettman gets.

So, if I have the hypothetical scenario of the thread right, An ownership group with $5 billion in cash is ready to go ahead with building an arena in the GTA with no taxpayer dollars, happy to pay the NHL $600 million for a franchise, happy to pay the TM an exorbitant amount for a 99 year rights waiver (which would be 0 is MLSE owned it.), happy to pay BUF a reasonable amount for their rights waiver, happy to start a season ticket holder campaign with ticket prices less than what TML charges. This team would automatically become the second most valuable NHL franchise, topping $1 billion, and likely a top 10 profit driver in the NHL. It would be a media darling and increase viewership exponentially. All because Toronto has 3 million hockey fans. Other cities don't come close to matching the amount of hockey fans (Seattle has less than a third of the GTA population). That is the gist of what I am getting.

It hasn't happened yet. What am I missing? Is it just that TML don't want another franchise in their backyard? NHL owners don't like money?

I don't think it is that cut and dried. I think the NHL has done their homework and knows something we do not.

A second GTA team is a pipe dream.

[GioforPM]

That survey is a little old (includes Vegas as a non-NHL city). And that is a bit interesting since Vegas is (a) smaller and (b) at a lower "hockey fan" percentage, but they've done very well (ableit woth no major league sports competition). And Seattle is also at a low percentage and got approved.

I think those percentages are a but suspect - when an actual team shows up, interest goes up. IIRC Houston's minor league team did pretty well.

[pepper24]

When does Edmonton have a larger population than Calgary? Impressive that both Alberta cities have highest % of avid fans.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by pepper24

When does Edmonton have a larger population than Calgary? Impressive that both Alberta cities have highest % of avid fans.

It's not population, but "media market".

It isn't the best way to measure though, I agree. Media market boundaries can be arbitrary or large (Thunder Bay-Sudbury).

If the Houston "media market" includes places like Corpus Christi, Austin, Laredo, Gavelston, Beaumont, San Marcos or San Antonia, then that could drag down their affinity.

[CSharp]

As if we don't have enough Saturday Hockey Night in Canada on CBC and Sportsnet showing Toronto for 3 frickin hours and then having everyone talk about them for another 5!

[Resolute 14]

I was wondering how long it would be until that ridiculous "fan avidity" story would be posted. I can't think of anything as unscientific and therefore completely worthless as determining how many fans are in a market based on how many people search "NHL" in google.

Seriously, when was the last time any of us made that search?

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Pay them enough, they'll waive all the way to the bank.

That’s pretty much what he said, only with less oversimplification.

They’ll have to waive, but they’re a brand with a more substantive thought process than just going for the money or killing the goose to get the golden egg.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

It hasn't happened yet. What am I missing? Is it just that TML don't want another franchise in their backyard? NHL owners don't like money?

I don't think it is that cut and dried. I think the NHL has done their homework and knows something we do not.

Excellent back peddling.

You’re probably missing experience in professionally sports, law, & other skills and abilities to both optimally grow & protect the long term viability and profitability of a professional sports league whist avoiding oversimplifications concocted on the back of a napkin or in ones head.

The NHL probably knows exactly how all of their owners think on the topic and will make a decision for maximum benefit.

Additionally no one cares if you use the term Laffs or Greasers, but when you use it at every available opportunity it both reduces the readability of what you’re trying to communicate and the efficacy of using the word to poke fun at those teams.

[Bleeding Red]

nobles_point - Excellent back peddling.

You’re probably missing experience in professionally sports, law, & other skills and abilities to both optimally grow & protect the long term viability and profitability of a professional sports league whist avoiding oversimplifications concocted on the back of a napkin or in ones head.

The NHL probably knows exactly how all of their owners think on the topic and will make a decision for maximum benefit.

Additionally no one cares if you use the term Laffs or Greasers, but when you use it at every available opportunity it both reduces the readability of what you’re trying to communicate and the efficacy of using the word to poke fun at those teams.

Not sure what I'm backpedaling on. I've maintained that a second GTA NHL team wouldn't be the awesome, best supported, economic juggernaut that others in this thread seem to think and those in the know seek to agree, otherwise there would already be a second GTA team.



If you are looking for the PHD, MBA, or LLB message board, please check the off topic section.


Apparently you care how I refer to the TML - you mentioned it twice. I have no issues with how others refer to the many sports teams or cities (tongue in cheek references, derogatory terms, or typos) and have no trouble reading their posts.



I will remove my lowbrow, clueless, elementary school self and leave this thread to the smart people.


Good day.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

The Balsillie affair had far more to do with ego and Bettman's US TV footprint than it did with cash.

IIRC, Balsillie ruffled as many feathers as he could in trying to do an end run around the NHL BoG in dealing directly with a couple of team owners (ARZ & PIT, I think) and trying to get an out deal from the town of Glendale. It became an issue of power not money. What Bettman wants, Bettman gets.

So, if I have the hypothetical scenario of the thread right, An ownership group with $5 billion in cash is ready to go ahead with building an arena in the GTA with no taxpayer dollars, happy to pay the NHL $600 million for a franchise, happy to pay the TM an exorbitant amount for a 99 year rights waiver (which would be 0 is MLSE owned it.), happy to pay BUF a reasonable amount for their rights waiver, happy to start a season ticket holder campaign with ticket prices less than what TML charges. This team would automatically become the second most valuable NHL franchise, topping $1 billion, and likely a top 10 profit driver in the NHL. It would be a media darling and increase viewership exponentially. All because Toronto has 3 million hockey fans. Other cities don't come close to matching the amount of hockey fans (Seattle has less than a third of the GTA population). That is the gist of what I am getting.

It hasn't happened yet. What am I missing? Is it just that TML don't want another franchise in their backyard? NHL owners don't like money?

I don't think it is that cut and dried. I think the NHL has done their homework and knows something we do not.

A second GTA team is a pipe dream.

You have said a whole lot that is either not true (eg. what other posters have said would be the outcome) or complete speculation (Bettmans "real" motivation for opposing Balsillie, as opposed to what he actually said) and what other NHL owners know.

What is accurate is that:

a. There is a exclusivity term for the TML anbd that's what Bettman cited;
b. The other posters have said another GTA team likely would be profitable.

I think the Maple leafs are the stumbling block and their objection is not based on ticket sales, it's based on merchandise.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I was wondering how long it would be until that ridiculous "fan avidity" story would be posted. I can't think of anything as unscientific and therefore completely worthless as determining how many fans are in a market based on how many people search "NHL" in google.

Seriously, when was the last time any of us made that search?

Look not further than Nashville in dead last despite many stories and articles on rabid hockey avidity in that city. I mean obviously it isn't king in any American city, but apparently they're very well known and loved around town and not even close to the afterthought an NHL team is in most southern cities.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Flames1217

It would be better if the team stayed in Hamilton to be honest.

City is big enough to support a team.

Just because it's a big enough city doesn't mean it's marketable for the NHL

See: NHL vs Balsilie - Winnipeg is pushing it

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I was wondering how long it would be until that ridiculous "fan avidity" story would be posted. I can't think of anything as unscientific and therefore completely worthless as determining how many fans are in a market based on how many people search "NHL" in google.

Seriously, when was the last time any of us made that search?

Originally Posted by jayswin

Look not further than Nashville in dead last despite many stories and articles on rabid hockey avidity in that city. I mean obviously it isn't king in any American city, but apparently they're very well known and loved around town and not even close to the afterthought an NHL team is in most southern cities.

It's also an article from 2013, with mostly 2010-2011 data. The NHL has changed quite a bit in this time. Nashville, Vegas and Tampa have all seen a big boost in NHL interest. Not to mention big playoff seasons from Chicago, Boston, NY and LA in the time since. The NHL has had a pretty good decade for marketability.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Just because it's a big enough city doesn't mean it's marketable for the NHL

See: NHL vs Balsilie - Winnipeg is pushing it

Or Atlanta for that matter which has a metro population of over 6 million. Or for the NBA, a city like Vancouver that has a population larger than many successful basketball markets.

You have to look past just the simple numbers and look at the other demographic factors as well. It's obviously a generalization, but the cultural and racial make up a city makes a difference. Some sports are ingrained in some cultures which makes them more marketable than sports which aren't.

[d_phaneuf]

Clear choice is a sudbury/thunder bay team

No need for another one in the GTA