Off Season Trade rumours thread - Brodie, Frolik, Stone etc. Only

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by New Era

No. he isn't. Sam Bennett has been given plenty of opportunity to play with very highly skilled players here in Calgary, and he's done jack. He's not going to to increase his production by 200% because he's playing with McDavid. If anything, McDavid sees a dip in his production from dragging Bennett around the ice. Saw what you want about some of the shlubs that have played with McDavid, those shlubs have at least shown a capacity to finish easy scoring chances. Sam Bennett plays hard but has shown an ability to make the easy scoring opportunity seem hard. I would not be concerned about Sam Bennett breaking out if he's traded. The last breakout Sam Bennett experienced was shortly after reaching puberty. If we can improve an important position by trading Sam Bennett, we make that deal every day.

Your anti-Bennett bias is so strong you've detached yourself from the reality of the situation. Bennett has not had "plenty" of opportunity to play up the lineup in Calgary, and this isn't necessarily a slight against Bennett or the coaches. Tkachuk, elite as he is, knocked Bennett down the line-up after Bennett had a very strong rookie campaign.

Heck, let's do this again:

Let's look at Sam Bennett's line mates over the last two years:

2018/2019
1st Quarter
BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - NEAL,JAMES
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
BENNETT,SAM - NEAL,JAMES - RYAN,DEREK

2nd Quarter
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - NEAL,JAMES
BENNETT,SAM - RYAN,DEREK - TKACHUK,MATTHEW

3rd Quarter
BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - NEAL,JAMES
BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW

4th Quarter
BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - RYAN,DEREK

2017/2018

1st Quarter
BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - LAZAR,CURTIS
BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - VERSTEEG,KRIS

2nd Quarter
BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - JANKOWSKI,MARK

3rd Quarter
BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN

4th Quarter
BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN
BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK
BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL

Let's break down 2018/2019 a bit further with even strength play:

Freq Line Combination
24.2 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
19.6 BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - NEAL,JAMES
12.2 BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK
4.5 BENNETT,SAM - NEAL,JAMES - RYAN,DEREK
3.9 BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN
3.6 BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL - RYAN,DEREK
3.4 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - NEAL,JAMES
2.9 BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
2.8 BENNETT,SAM - RYAN,DEREK - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
2.5 BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL - JANKOWSKI,MARK

and where he scored his even strength points:

PTS %Total Line Combination
7 33.3 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
5 23.8 BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - NEAL,JAMES
2 9.5 BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - RYAN,DEREK
2 9.5 BENNETT,SAM - CZARNIK,AUSTIN - JANKOWSKI,MARK
1 4.8 BENNETT,SAM - DUBE,DILLON - NEAL,JAMES
1 4.8 BENNETT,SAM - QUINE,ALAN - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
1 4.8 BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL - RYAN,DEREK
1 4.8 BENNETT,SAM - NEAL,JAMES - RYAN,DEREK
1 4.8 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - NEAL,JAMES

Now 2017/2018 even strength:

Freq Line Combination
28.7 BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK
10.1 BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - JANKOWSKI,MARK
7.6 BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN
5.5 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - JANKOWSKI,MARK
5.2 BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - LAZAR,CURTIS
4.5 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL
2.7 BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - LAZAR,CURTIS
2.5 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FOO,SPENCER
2.3 BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - VERSTEEG,KRIS
2 BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - JANKOWSKI,MARK

and 2017/2018 5v5 production:

PTS %Total Line Combination
9 39.1 BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - JANKOWSKI,MARK
5 21.7 BENNETT,SAM - JAGR,JAROMIR - JANKOWSKI,MARK
2 8.7 BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - MONAHAN,SEAN
2 8.7 BENNETT,SAM - JANKOWSKI,MARK - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
2 8.7 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - JANKOWSKI,MARK
1 4.3 BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - MONAHAN,SEAN
1 4.3 BENNETT,SAM - HATHAWAY,GARNET - STAJAN,MATT

how about 2016/2017:

Freq Line Combination
20.8 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - VERSTEEG,KRIS
13.5 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY
11.3 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - VERSTEEG,KRIS
6.8 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - STAJAN,MATTHEW
5.4 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - MONAHAN,SEAN
5.3 BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - VERSTEEG,KRIS
4.2 BENNETT,SAM - BOUMA,LANCE - CHIASSON,ALEX
3.8 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
2.8 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY
2.7 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL

and 2016/2017's even strength production:

PTS %Total Line Combination
6 28.6 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - VERSTEEG,KRIS
4 19 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY
2 9.5 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - VERSTEEG,KRIS
2 9.5 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - STAJAN,MATTHEW
2 9.5 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - MONAHAN,SEAN
2 9.5 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
1 4.8 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - CHIASSON,ALEX
1 4.8 BENNETT,SAM - CHIASSON,ALEX - TKACHUK,MATTHEW
1 4.8 BENNETT,SAM - BROUWER,TROY - FERLAND,MICHEAL

Where is this opportunity you speak of? Last time Bennett got quality line mates consistently was during his rookie year, and he produced quite nicely:

Freq Line Combination
26.8 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL
6 BENNETT,SAM - GRANLUND,MARKUS - HUDLER,JIRI
5.4 BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - JOORIS,JOSH
4.1 BENNETT,SAM - GRANLUND,MARKUS - RAYMOND,MASON
4.1 BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE - FERLAND,MICHEAL
3.2 BENNETT,SAM - FERLAND,MICHEAL - JONES,DAVID
2.9 BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY
2.8 BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE - GRANLUND,MARKUS
2.3 BENNETT,SAM - BOUMA,LANCE - COLBORNE,JOE
2.2 BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - JONES,DAVID

PTS %Total Line Combination
10 35.7 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - FROLIK,MICHAEL
3 10.7 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - HUDLER,JIRI
3 10.7 BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE - FERLAND,MICHEAL
1 3.6 BENNETT,SAM - HUDLER,JIRI - STAJAN,MATTHEW
1 3.6 BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE - GRANLUND,MARKUS
1 3.6 BENNETT,SAM - BOLLIG,BRANDON - JOORIS,JOSH
1 3.6 BACKLUND,MIKAEL - BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE
1 3.6 BENNETT,SAM - COLBORNE,JOE - FROLIK,MICHAEL
1 3.6 BENNETT,SAM - BOUMA,LANCE - COLBORNE,JOE
1 3.6 BENNETT,SAM - GAUDREAU,JOHNNY - JONES,DAVID


The reality of Sam Bennett's usage is that of being used as the best player on the 3rd line in hopes of creating a 3rd line. Coaches, both Gulutzan and Peters, tended to use Frolik as the 3rd piece of the 2nd line. It was the safest choice to help win games, but what you see elsewhere around the league is generally players of Bennett's ilk being moved up the depth chart to develop and build them - and we saw this more often last year now that we have a good NHL coach. Now, given circumstance - Tkachuk took Bennett's spot on that 2nd line pretty much the moment Chucky showed up, and because of the heavy lifting that line does I totally understand why Frolik was used. This is no slight on Bennett, or the coaches. Bennett isn't as good as Tkachuk, and barring a miracle, never will be.

Now where Treliving has failed has been in constructing that 3rd line outside of Bennett. It's been filled with players who have completely failed to play up the line-up, and players who aren't even in the league anymore. Jankowski has been Bennett's biggest aid, but he even has his own struggles - particularly at adapting to centre at the NHL level.

Treliving attempting to acquire Kadri shows his desire to improve that 3rd line further - and note that Kadri is a centre, while Bennett is a winger. Tree wasn't trying to improve on Bennett, because he's already the best part of that line. He was trying to improve on Jankowski (hell, Jankowski was part of the trade).

So yeah, I view a lot of what you post to be coloured by an anti-Bennett bias. I just don't understand why you hold the view of him you do. I don't get how someone doesn't like a young 23 year old winger who is not done developing, but who already plays with an edge and is one of our most competitive players when the games get important. He took good strides under Peters, and I think there is plenty of reason to believe that will continue.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

No. he isn't. Sam Bennett has been given plenty of opportunity to play with very highly skilled players here in Calgary, and he's done jack. He's not going to to increase his production by 200% because he's playing with McDavid. If anything, McDavid sees a dip in his production from dragging Bennett around the ice. Saw what you want about some of the shlubs that have played with McDavid, those shlubs have at least shown a capacity to finish easy scoring chances. Sam Bennett plays hard but has shown an ability to make the easy scoring opportunity seem hard. I would not be concerned about Sam Bennett breaking out if he's traded. The last breakout Sam Bennett experienced was shortly after reaching puberty. If we can improve an important position by trading Sam Bennett, we make that deal every day.

Confidence is a funny thing. Bennett and McDavid played on a line together as kids, through to midget. So much so that their parents are friends. It's not even a tiny stretch to imagine that his confidence would instantly resurge, given the opportunity. No doubt McDavid would be jacked too. For the Flames to gift the Oilers that opportunity would be a horrific mistake.

Your bias against Bennett is absolute.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Confidence is a funny thing. Bennett and McDavid played on a line together as kids, through to midget. So much so that their parents are friends. It's not even a tiny stretch to imagine that his confidence would instantly resurge, given the opportunity. No doubt McDavid would be jacked too. For the Flames to gift the Oilers that opportunity would be a horrific mistake.

Your bias against Bennett is absolute.

So we should ask for Draisaitl then.

[GranteedEV]

I'm not gonna say much, but I'll say this: There are many examples around the league of players in fruitless situations who due to a trade or coaching decision blow up with the increased consistency, quantity, & variety of ice time, as well as an uptick in quality of linemate, team makeup, and special teams usage. We see it around the league. Brayden Schenn. Max Domi. William Karlsson. Elias Lindholm. Sean Couturier. Dylan Strome. Kyle Turris back in Ottawa. Blake Wheeler back in Atlanta.

Sam Bennett hasn't been tried as a top two line center on this team. Kudos to Backlund and Monahan for holding down their respective spots with their unique, if focused skillsets, but that has resulted in scraps for Bennett in many areas. A few minutes here and there in the top six playing a position, RW, that he was NEVER drafted to play, while still largely being on the second PP and at the mercy of the coach's whim depending on overall team play, does not qualify in my eyes as a legitimate opportunity.

Do I know what Bennett would do in Edmonton? No. I imagine he would instantly be one of their four best forwards though, and thus a lock for their top 6 and top PP. Is it farfetch to think his, if nothing else, minutes and secondary assists would skyrocket in that situation? And he's already one of the better primary point producers in the league, per minute.

But I also don't know how successful a Ryan Nugent-Hopkins would be in Bennett's role here. His past success would certainly give him far more rope in an elevated role - a role Bennett's never been tried in - but that doesn't mean the team would necessarily reap the rewards. Nuge has spent his whole career playing huge minutes with the likes of Hall, Eberle, Draisaitl, and now McDavid but does he crack our top PP ahead of Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, or Lindholm?

I'm always amazed at how fixated people can be on point totals. Go back to Kadri - a year ago he was a 30/30 player, but a reduced role, and, even on one of the most stacked forward groups (Kadri played a lot with Nylander last year on a third line that should be a 2nd line on most teams) and saw his production plummet pretty sharply. And again, there's a huge difference between William Nylander and Mark Jankowski as your primary linemate.

If the Flames had exhausted every opportunity to wring the most out of Bennett, and still come away with zilch, it would be one thing. But they have not, and so undervaluing him in a trade would be negligent at best. Brouwer... Chiasson... Lazar... Hathaway... Jankowski... Foo... Neal... that's what we've given him. Even McDavid couldn't magically make Lucic effective.

A very possible scenario is this: You acquire Nugent Hopkins to be your 2C, and he gives you around 45 points in that role. Backlund's production drops with worse linemates, but his cap hit stays the same. Meanwhile Bennett, by virtue of the expanded role, hits that 55-65pt range he never had a chance to here. That's not even getting into intangibles.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm not gonna say much, but I'll say this: There are many examples around the league of players in fruitless situations who due to a trade or coaching decision blow up with the increased consistency, quantity, & variety of ice time, as well as an uptick in quality of linemate, team makeup, and special teams usage. We see it around the league. Brayden Schenn. Max Domi. William Karlsson. Elias Lindholm. Sean Couturier. Dylan Strome. Kyle Turris back in Ottawa. Blake Wheeler back in Atlanta.

Sam Bennett hasn't been tried as a top two line center on this team. Kudos to Backlund and Monahan for holding down their respective spots with their unique, if focused skillsets, but that has resulted in scraps for Bennett in many areas. A few minutes here and there in the top six playing a position, RW, that he was NEVER drafted to play, while still largely being on the second PP and at the mercy of the coach's whim depending on overall team play, does not qualify in my eyes as a legitimate opportunity.

Do I know what Bennett would do in Edmonton? No. I imagine he would instantly be one of their four best forwards though, and thus a lock for their top 6 and top PP.

But I also don't know how successful a Ryan Nugent-Hopkins would be in Bennett's role here. His past success would certainly give him far more rope in an elevated role - a role Bennett's never been tried in - but that doesn't mean the team would necessarily reap the rewards. Nuge has spent his whole career playing huge minutes with the likes of Hall, Eberle, Draisaitl, and now McDavid but does he crack our top PP ahead of Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, or Lindholm?

I think you could pencil RNH to center Tkachuk and Neal/NEW RW
Pushing Backs down to #3 where he'd likely be better utilized throughout the spectrum. Having RNH take some load off the top line offensive zone start would help too.

And Having two really really good playmakers in Johnny and RNH anchoring their respective lines would do that whole greater balance thing you were trying so hard to sell about Ferlands desired return here.

Still don't like the idea of Bennett going the other way. But, if for the greater good it made this team better overall, then I could live with it. Still, if Poolparty ignites in a new scenario too having an opportunity to run in either the 2nd or 3rd line, it makes life after Bennett more liveable.

Anywho, long story short, RNH HAS to come back in any proposed deal that sends Bennett up the QE2. Thats all I got on this particular speculation from Edmonton.

[Nelson]

If the Flames trade for RNH, he would be their second line centre in my opinion. Certainly, I would rather include Jankowski in a trade for RNH, but I would never not trade for RNH just because they asked for Bennett to be the second piece alongside Brodie. Do ppl realize RNH had 69 points last season? Bennett has 79 over the past 3 seasons.

I guess I don’t care about the team being able to hit and punch as much as some do, but I think there is some serious anti-Oiler bias blinding ppl to how good of a trade Brodie + Bennett for RNH + JP would be. RNH would be the most valuable piece in that deal by quite a bit.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Nelson

If the Flames trade for RNH, he would be their second line centre in my opinion. Certainly, I would rather include Jankowski in a trade for RNH, but I would never not trade for RNH just because they asked for Bennett to be the second piece alongside Brodie. Do ppl realize RNH had 69 points last season? Bennett has 79 over the past 3 seasons.

I guess I don’t care about the team being able to hit and punch as much as some do, but I think there is some serious anti-Oiler bias blinding ppl to how good of a trade Brodie + Bennett for RNH + JP would be. RNH would be the most valuable piece in that deal by quite a bit.

Hmmmm, Brodie has a bunch of value too. Especially since they need a guy to run with 5...wait 4 Giordanos they have up there. He's gonna be a popular guy helping all 4 Gios win the Norris simultaniously.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Ok, look, I know we are unimpressed with Neal

Lucic got 74 shots on goal in 79 games.

Neal had 141 shots in 63 games, and an absurdly low 5 percent shooting percentage. 2.2 shots per game, off his recent years numbers which you may see around ~2.8

Even coming back to the low end of his recent normal 10-12 percent shooting percentage range, he should be much better than Lucic. And I think with confidence it will snowball a bit.

Sometimes players struggle the first 20 games or so with a new team, and Neal sure didn’t get out of that funk decisively. I don’t see any way he is possibly as bad as last year.

You can’t sell low if the return is way lower

I would 100% agree with everything you wrote here. More often than not, being patient given a players' history and usage will result in a bit of a rebound season.


However, one of the main criticisms that I have towards Neal is his shot. I thought it was awful. It is not hard, nor accurate. It is not reminiscent of a sniper in the least, and though I do acknowledge that I may be suffering from confirmation bias, his shooting percentage was higher than it should be thanks to a few 'flukey' goals this year (like the knuckler against Pittsburgh that game in which they walloped Calgary, and created that turn around in the season).


That's why I would unload Neal for any player that could offer 'something', as aside from taking Dube in the corner and telling him all the right things (which IS valuable), I don't see him contributing anywhere else on the ice. Actually, I only see him being a detriment to the team both with his cap hit AND how players seem to suffer when he is on their line.


Another thing that worries me - and another reason why I would make the trade - is his self-awareness of the situation. Great that he is taking pride in himself and training hard in order to have a better season (something I am hoping for - will be happy to be proven wrong), but how on earth could he be going up to Peters and complain about his usage in the playoffs and arguing about it? If Neal doesn't get on a roll early on in the upcoming season, this could get ugly real fast and become a distraction to the team.



I guess we will see how he does this upcoming season, but I didn't see a guy that seemed to be suffering from 'bad luck'. I saw a guy that was unable to get to good shooting areas and a guy who had a poor shot, and thus I am not expecting his shooting percentage to improve unless he wants to start attacking the net and playing a much more gritty net-front presence type of game. I don't see him scoring much from distance. Maybe the stick thing is in his head, I don't know... but I really didn't see a player's poor shot be explained away as simply bad luck.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Hmmmm, Brodie has a bunch of value too. Especially since they need a guy to run with 5...wait 4 Giordanos they have up there. He's gonna be a popular guy helping all 4 Gios win the Norris simultaniously.

I think in the Brodie + Bennett for RNH + JP trade, the order of most valuable to least valuable would be:
-RNH
-Brodie
-Bennett
-JP

[ah123]

I don’t understand how trading Brodie or Bennett to the Oilers is beneficial. The Flames would be helping them plug major holes, making it more difficult for the Flames to make the playoffs next year. I don’t really see how RNH helps the Flames, unless they flip him (or Jankowski) to another team for more sandpaper type player

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Nelson

If the Flames trade for RNH, he would be their second line centre in my opinion.

Perhaps that's the role he would be given. But it's questionable if that results in an improvement in the Flames' success.

I would never not trade for RNH just because they asked for Bennett to be the second piece alongside Brodie. Do ppl realize RNH had 69 points last season? Bennett has 79 over the past 3 seasons.

Do you realize how much ice time RNH has been handed in his career? With top shelf players? Draisaitl was a goal shy of the Rocket Richard this year, McDavid is a perennial Art Ross / Hart contender. Taylor Hall's won a Hart Trophy. Jordan Eberle is probably the worst regular linemate RNH has had, and I wonder how many here, cap notwithstanding, wouldn't do a Janko/Eberle swap with respect to offense.

Over the span of Sam Bennett's career, RNH has had a 5v5 primary point rate of of 1.14. Bennett has had a 5v5 primary point rate of 1.21 in his career. Mikael Backlund, whom 69 pt RNH is supposed to be "upgrade on", is up at 1.30 over the same time span. It's telling that RNH is the lowest of the three despite being older than Bennett and more reputed as an offensive producer than Backlund. That should tell you how propped up he is by the big minutes he plays on a hapless Oilers squad.

I don't doubt that RNH plays a ton of minutes on the Oilers, or that he's a useful player, but there's some serious reason to think he's very much being propped up by some damn good players. Those 69 points you allude to last year? 41 of them were created in concert with either McDavid, Draisaitl, or McDavid AND Draisaitl.

For all the flak TJ Brodie takes for playing with Mark Giordano, it's amazing how much refusal there is to acknowledge when certain forwards leaguewide are not the dynamic point producers their numbers say they are. We've seen enough of Nuge here in Alberta to see how invisible and ineffective he can be so very often, yet the stat sheets are such tempting foolsgold.

I think there is some serious anti-Oiler bias blinding ppl to how good of a trade Brodie + Bennett for RNH + JP would be. RNH would be the most valuable piece in that deal by quite a bit.

Brodie is the best player in such a deal. Hands down. The Flames fanbase is so incredible disillusioned due to the visibilility of his turnovers that they're unable to identify that. There's also a serious question mark around RNH's primary point production, which is weak any way you look at it. If Bennett produces more goals and primary assists per minute of 5v5 icetime, there's a serious possibility that RNH is the THIRD best player in such a swap. An RNH who has to share icetime at center with Monahan and Backlund, and isn't on our top PP unit with Gaudreau/Monahan/Lindholm/Tkachuk all being firmly planted... there's a serious chance he'd be a failure of an acquisition for the Calgary Flames.

The only reason a Brodie/RNH swap would remotely make sense is that Brodie is a UFA in a year while RNH has two years left on his deal - it'd be purely a contract trade (and misguided, since a top4D with Gio, Andersson, and Hamonic would be one of the slowest in the league especially with Gio another year older). But adding Bennett makes it instantly lopsided in favour of the freakin' Edmonton Oilers, regardless of whether Puljujarvi is the return. I'd offer Jankowski, or even a Dube for Puljujarvi, a prospect for prospect swap on the hole JP can turn it around. Bennett to EDM would be incompetence.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Perhaps that's the role he would be given. But it's questionable if that results in an improvement in the Flames' success.



Do you realize how much ice time RNH has been handed in his career? With top shelf players? Draisaitl was a goal shy of the Rocket Richard this year, McDavid is a perennial Art Ross / Hart contender. Taylor Hall's won a Hart Trophy. Jordan Eberle is probably the worst regular linemate RNH has had, and I wonder how many here, cap notwithstanding, wouldn't do a Janko/Eberle swap with respect to offense.

Over the span of Sam Bennett's career, RNH has had a 5v5 primary point rate of of 1.14. Bennett has had a 5v5 primary point rate of 1.21 in his career. Mikael Backlund, whom 69 pt RNH is supposed to be "upgrade on", is up at 1.30 over the same time span.

I don't doubt that RNH plays a ton of minutes on the Oilers, or that he's a useful player, but there's some serious reason to think he's very much being propped up by some damn good players. Those 69 points you allude to last year? 41 of them were created in concert with either McDavid, Draisaitl, or McDavid AND Draisaitl.

For all the Flak TJ Brodie takes for playing with Mark Giordano, it's amazing how much refusal there is to acknowledge when certain forwards leaguewide are not the dynamic point producers their numbers say they are. We've seen enough of Nuge here in Alberta to see how invisible and ineffective he can be so very often, yet the stat sheets are such tempting foolsgold.




Brodie is the best player in such a deal. Hands down. The Flames fanbase is so incredible disillusioned due to the visibilility of his turnovers that they're unable to identify that. There's also a serious question mark around RNH's primary point production, which is weak any way you look at it.

This was a very informative post. I did not know about those rates you mentioned, and I did not know the percentage of his points that came from playing with Draisaitl and McDavid.

I don’t dislike Brodie because of his turnovers. I think that’s a function of how often he carries the puck, just like Gardiner. In fact, I like Brodie a lot (the only Flames jersey I own is of Brodie). His edgework is fantastic, and he has a high skill level.

I do think the Flames need an upgrade down the middle. Perhaps RNH is not the best option. Certainly, the numbers you’ve quoted have left me in doubt. But I think the Flames need to acquire a centreman who can generate offence. I don’t care too much about toughness or grit. I want speed and skill.

Another option would be to acquire a player like Ehlers or Nylander in return for Brodie + and then move Lindholm to C.

Ehlers would be my number 1 favourite option. The man is an automatic zone entry with possession.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by ah123

I don’t understand how trading Brodie or Bennett to the Oilers is beneficial. The Flames would be helping them plug major holes, making it more difficult for the Flames to make the playoffs next year. I don’t really see how RNH helps the Flames, unless they flip him (or Jankowski) to another team for more sandpaper type player

I don’t care if we help oilers plug holes if it makes our team better.

I think we can stand down from the hysteria over Lucic coming here. Doesn’t make any sense. Can’t see Brodie waiving for Edm either.

If (and I stress if) oilers want Bennett, we won’t give him up for zip. Treliving was hard after Kadri as a second line C and while he would have provided grit and scoring, not too many players are available that can provide that. If Bennett is going out, you’d think RNH is coming back. But Bennett for RNH won’t work salary wise (or value wise for Edmonton imho), so deal has to expand.

With Edmonton weak on wings, frolik could be a top six for them and get a fresh start with a coach. Neal also helps them on the wing, but Neal/Bennett/Frolik for RNH slants the deal in oilers favour, so more needs to be added by Edm. Can see Kassian coming our way to replace lost grit, but edm still needs to add without salary coming back. So you’re talking prospects and/or picks. So deal would loo as follows (salaries rounded)

To CGY

RNH - $6
kassian - $2
Picks/Prospects (maybe includes Poolparty who can slot in as rw)

To Edm

Neal - $6
Frolik - $4
Bennett - FA

We save $2m and don’t have to sign Bennett which would leave $12m to sign Tkachuk/Rittich/mangiapane. Edm takes on $2m in salary and they can probably bury enough salary to sign Bennett and builds strength on wings. We keep lindholm As first line rw and boost our second line C which slots Backlund as 3c.

Maybe the Bennett talk is a smokescreen and Frolik goes for picks/ prospects and that’s the extent of it. But if Bennett is going north, Edm has to add value and can’t see it not involving RNH.

[442scotty]

Kassian and give up Bennett?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by ah123

I don’t understand how trading Brodie or Bennett to the Oilers is beneficial. The Flames would be helping them plug major holes, making it more difficult for the Flames to make the playoffs next year. I don’t really see how RNH helps the Flames, unless they flip him (or Jankowski) to another team for more sandpaper type player

This is my worry too.

Suddenly you have McDavid, Bennett skating circles around the Flames with speed while Bennett can fight and push our guys around. Suddenly they have a better player in Neal and we are stuck with Lucic who we couldn't trade. We would have so many people on CP pissed at BT and up in arms every game wondering what the heck is Lucic doing on our team and we have no way to trade him. To top it off his low give a crap meter would rub off on our players.

One thing Bennett did that many of our players failed to do was stick up for guys on the team including Johnny. In many ways Bennett brought the team together during tough games. Bennett has one thing in spades and that is an identity, without it this might not be the same team going forward.

[kukkudo]

According to my Oilers source Bennetts name is in trade talks. For who I do not know.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

According to my Oilers source Bennetts name is in trade talks. For who I do not know.

For all we know Bennett has asked to be moved. Maybe wants to be with a team where he has a chance to be a top six guy.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

For all we know Bennett has asked to be moved. Maybe wants to be with a team where he has a chance to be a top six guy.

This is the only reason why I believe his name is coming up. Or Treliving does not see arbitration going well?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

According to my Oilers source Bennetts name is in trade talks. For who I do not know.

better be RNH at least

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

For all we know Bennett has asked to be moved. Maybe wants to be with a team where he has a chance to be a top six guy.

That's been murmured before. Last off season at the earliest I think. Whether that's been debunked I do not know.

EDIT: It was Kypreos. I know that much.