Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 10-27-2020, 04:45 PM   #221
cannon7
Needs More Cowbell
 
cannon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Not Canada, Eh?
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny01 View Post
I agree you are not fully developed at 14 but you know the difference between right and wrong. You seem to be grasping at straws to find ways to remove accountability from this young man. If he was on the spectrum that knowledge would have been known already so that is a throw away assumption to once again try and deflect accountability from Miller. I think there is a better chance he is a psychopath who doesn’t feel remorse for his actions.

You could be right about there are factors that are not known but your wild speculation is complete fabrication at this point and we are discussing the facts that have been provided. Maybe other factors will come to light here and that will change my opinion but right now I see an extremely entitled young man who bullied the most vulnerable person in his path.
We've only heard one side of the story and you're ready to jump to conclusions. Including that this young man is a psychopath.

Believe it or not but some people prefer to keep their developmental disorders private. So if Miller was on the spectrum, that's not really our business. But for your information, there are far more people on the autism spectrum than there are psychopaths.

I'm pointing out there are potential factors that completely change this deranged narrative.

Are you a psychiatrist? Have you met this young man? Didn't think so.
cannon7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 04:47 PM   #222
DazzlinDino
Franchise Player
 
DazzlinDino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Grew up in Calgary now living in USA
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattman View Post
As someone who also had to deal with bullying constantly through sports and through highschool, I am sickened to hear this.

I think alot of the people here have touched on the importance of reconciliation, and how much it means to have the offender apologize in person.

One thing I will agree with is that this is totally up to Mitchell now. Own up to your actions, apologize, and become a voice for incidents like this and for people who are affected by it. People can change, and if he ever wants to make a pro career he will have to show he has changed through his words and actions. Not rooting for him or against him, just to be a better person.

Another good soldier who understands! Being a young person means learning social skills and relying a lot on "raw" feelings of trust. Young, or vulnerable people don't always have the ability to anticipate and defend against hurtful words and attacks. An acknowledgement or an act of sincere apology can go a long ways to bring about healing. I agree with your assessment; There is a huge opportunity here for Miller to take the reins!
DazzlinDino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 04:59 PM   #223
Vinny01
Franchise Player
 
Vinny01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CGY
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannon7 View Post
We've only heard one side of the story and you're ready to jump to conclusions. Including that this young man is a psychopath.

Believe it or not but some people prefer to keep their developmental disorders private. So if Miller was on the spectrum, that's not really our business. But for your information, there are far more people on the autism spectrum than there are psychopaths.

I'm pointing out there are potential factors that completely change this deranged narrative.

Are you a psychiatrist? Have you met this young man? Didn't think so.

You are the one wildly speculating. I didn’t call him a psychopath but I think it is more likely than he being on the spectrum. I know plenty about the Autistic spectrum as I have an older brother with Autism which is admittedly one of the reasons I am so angry about this. I grew up with people calling my brother the R word and making fun of him and you know what that was when we were young kids. No one ever said anything like that to me or him when we were teenagers. My family has always been involved in Special Olympics and I grew up know a lot of mentally handicapped people and understand how innocent and vulnerable they are which is why my blood boils when I hear about people making fun of or bullying people who are mentally challenged.

You keep grasping for a narrative that absolves him for this action.
Vinny01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 05:02 PM   #224
cannon7
Needs More Cowbell
 
cannon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Not Canada, Eh?
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
But let's condemn her and his parents for it anyways!
She's not the victim. Her son is the victim. And it was her job to protect him. As it was the job of every adult involved.

There's no condemnation here. I don't know this woman or what she did or didn't do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
But now bending over backwards to blame everyone and everything but him, including bringing up a mental condition that no one has suggested about this person, seems to me that you're just cool with what he did and don't see it as a big deal.
Funny. I'd say you're the one who is naive. Those who rush to judgment without all the facts and are so willing to castrate human potential are the fools lacking wisdom.
cannon7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 05:11 PM   #225
Doctorfever
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Doctorfever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

One thing I will say about this is that the story says the bullying started at age 7. That type of stuff happens at that age, and it is up to the parents and, to a lesser extent, teachers to put a stop to it.

The fact that it went on for seven years, to me, you can totally blame Miller’s parents. It should have been stopped long before he was 14.

We can agree or disagree whether a 14 year old knows right from wrong, but we can all agree that a seven year old needs parental guidance.

The rest of what we know or think about this kid is based on pure speculation.

I am in the camp that I think I would have stayed away from him at the draft if I was a GM, but I certainly wouldn’t keep him from playing in the NHL if I knew he has changed his ways and had apologized to the victim.
__________________
____________________________________________
Doctorfever is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Doctorfever For This Useful Post:
Old 10-27-2020, 05:12 PM   #226
cannon7
Needs More Cowbell
 
cannon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Not Canada, Eh?
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny01 View Post
You keep grasping for a narrative that absolves him for this action.
It's to late for absolution. He was punished for what he did. And I think the punishment was deserved.

You seem really confused.
cannon7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 05:18 PM   #227
afc wimbledon
Franchise Player
 
afc wimbledon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: east van
Exp:
Default

I've worked with many bullies and many kids on the autistic spectrum and I haven't seen the two intersect frankly, bullies like watching their victims pain and anguish, autistic kids struggle to recognise pain and suffering, its would be a lousy basis for a bully
afc wimbledon is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to afc wimbledon For This Useful Post:
Old 10-27-2020, 05:21 PM   #228
Azure
Had an idea!
 
Azure's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Exp:
Default

Obviously an emotional issue, but I think this thread is actually pretty good. Some responses about wishing the worst on this kid are over the line though.

I saw and experienced bullying when I was in school as well. Nothing I saw came close to what this kid did. The bullying I experienced went away after a couple years, but even that was tough to move past as I got older. Bullying leaves a mark for a long time, which is why I find it so reprehensible. I also feel that the biggest thing a bully can do is show remorse on a personal level, not just because it shows he cares, but because it helps the kids that he bullied move past the bullying.

That didn't seem to happen here which suggests an issue with the parents, coaches, teachers, etc.

My other issue is the Coyotes. They knew about the issue, and all they would have needed to do is tell the kid that if he wants to get drafted, he needs to reach out on a personal level to make things right. Writing a letter might be okay in some situations, but with this level of bullying I really think the personal side of things would have gone a long way.

Some of the kids I knew in school that were bullies are still idiots, and some have turned into great people. From my experience, those that turned into great people were the ones that reached out to make things right with the kids that were victims of their bullying. Even if those kids had gotten over it, the remorse goes a long way.

I think some people in this thread are not placing enough personal responsibility on what this kid did. At 14 the remorse that he may have shown was like Cliff said perhaps forced on by lawyers, but he is an adult now, and there is absolutely nothing stopping him from reaching out to the poor kid he bullied and making things right.

At the end of the day, that is all it takes. You can't take back what was done, or the damage that it left. All you can do is go and apologize and become a voice against bullying. Has he done that? Doesn't seem like it. That speaks loudly not of his character as a 14 year old, but of his character as a 18 year adult soon to sign a multi million dollar contract.

When it comes to bullying, simply not doing it anymore is not good enough. There needs to be work done to try and fix the ##### that you created.
Azure is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Azure For This Useful Post:
Old 10-27-2020, 05:25 PM   #229
Oling_Roachinen
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannon7 View Post
She's not the victim. Her son is the victim. And it was her job to protect him. As it was the job of every adult involved.

There's no condemnation here. I don't know this woman or what she did or didn't do.
First I completely disagree with your interpretation of victim.

If you don't think seeing your son come home crying, bloodied and having to go to the hospital for STD testing makes you a victim as well, I'm not sure we're on the same page at all. I'm sure this was traumatic for the mother feeling powerless to stop her son from being bullied - making her a victim.

But it's obvious to me now that you will blame anyone but Miller. It should have been obvious when you suggested that the victim and his family may not be telling the truth about receiving an apology but now we have:
  • It's Miller's parents fault
  • It's Ohio's fault for not having strong young offender confidentially.
  • It's the media's fault for giving his victim an outlet to speak about his bullying
  • It's the victim's parents' fault for not stopping it
  • It's Miller's undiagnosed autism that we pulled from our asses' fault
  • It's the justice system's fault because he could be liable civilly if he apologized.

Have I missed anything?

No wonder the guy doesn't feel the need to apologize, he probably has someone telling him it's everyone else's fault but his. Which I guess means we can that it's people like cannon7's fault as well...

Last edited by Oling_Roachinen; 10-27-2020 at 05:27 PM.
Oling_Roachinen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 05:26 PM   #230
cannon7
Needs More Cowbell
 
cannon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Not Canada, Eh?
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by afc wimbledon View Post
I've worked with many bullies and many kids on the autistic spectrum and I haven't seen the two intersect frankly, bullies like watching their victims pain and anguish, autistic kids struggle to recognise pain and suffering, its would be a lousy basis for a bully
Bullies Nearly Twice As Likely To Have Mental Health Disorder
cannon7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 05:43 PM   #231
cannon7
Needs More Cowbell
 
cannon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Not Canada, Eh?
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
First I completely disagree with your interpretation of victim.
If you don't think seeing your son come home crying, bloodied and having to go to the hospital for STD testing makes you a victim as well, I'm not sure we're on the same page at all. I'm sure this was traumatic for the mother feeling powerless to stop her son from being bullied - making her a victim.[/QUOTE]

She was not powerless. It's precisely this line of thinking that allows bullying to fester for seven years. I make no excuses for the adults involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
But it's obvious to me now that you will blame anyone but Miller. It should have been obvious when you suggested that the victim and his family may not be telling the truth about receiving an apology but now we have:
Yawn. Miller was punished for what he did and I agree with the punishment. He now has an opportunity to be a better person and I won't stand in his way. But it is you who wants the raking over the coals to never see an end.

I never said anything the victim's family said was untruthful. You continue to put words in my mouth.
cannon7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 05:53 PM   #232
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannon7 View Post
If you don't think seeing your son come home crying, bloodied and having to go to the hospital for STD testing makes you a victim as well, I'm not sure we're on the same page at all. I'm sure this was traumatic for the mother feeling powerless to stop her son from being bullied - making her a victim.

She was not powerless. It's precisely this line of thinking that allows bullying to fester for seven years. I make no excuses for the adults involved.



Yawn. Miller was punished for what he did and I agree with the punishment. He now has an opportunity to be a better person and I won't stand in his way. But it is you who wants the raking over the coals to never see an end.

I never said anything the victim's family said was untruthful. You continue to put words in my mouth.
You keep saying that most people want blood for his sins, that people want him to be raked over the coals forever, that people make you sick.

Most people just think he hasn’t done right until he’s done right by his victim, and aren’t ready to wish him well in an NHL career until he’s done that. And would otherwise prefer not to see him have one if he won’t. Why is that such a controversial thing to you?

As well, you keep acting like the comments from one or two posts represent the thread or the majority. Sorry, who exactly is putting words in the mouths of others here?
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Old 10-27-2020, 06:05 PM   #233
BigErnSalute_16
Crash and Bang Winger
 
BigErnSalute_16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan View Post
Everyone deserves a second chance.

But, I would hope that the Coyotes organization at the very least have made it abundantly clear to the kid that there is no room for error, that he is on thin ice. Something along the lines of “we believe in your remarkable talent, but we really need you to be a team player and mature a little.”

There’s no room for this in hockey.
The thing with everyone deserving a second chance is, sometimes if they don't take their second chance it's hard to tell if they were ever given one. This kid has definitely had more than a second chance. He went to court for his bullying, was forced to write an apology letter that he never sent and has never apologized to the kid he bullied.

That to me sounds like a pretty prime second chance to make up for what he did that he refused to take.

So no i'm not lining up to give this kid any more chances because he's already shown he doesn't want one and won't use it the way we hope.

There comes a point where people are just ####ing #######s who deserve no more chances and it sounds like this kid is probably in that category
BigErnSalute_16 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to BigErnSalute_16 For This Useful Post:
Old 10-27-2020, 06:11 PM   #234
Oling_Roachinen
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannon7 View Post
Yawn. Miller was punished for what he did and I agree with the punishment. He now has an opportunity to be a better person and I won't stand in his way. But it is you who wants the raking over the coals to never see an end.
Why now? What was stopping him from being a better person 4 years ago directly after the incident? What was stopping him when he was in the court with his buddy who showed remorse? What about 2 years after when he was a 16 year old beginning to understand the impact he had on his victims? Why not when he turned 18 ten months ago? He's been a legal adult for 10 months and never took the opportunity to reach out to his victim. 10 months he was an adult, there's no longer the "he's just a kid" when he actively didn't try to make amends as an adult. Every day for 10 months he chose not to reach out.

But, I think you've relaxed your position a bit. Now you're saying he could be become a better person? Not that he is? We can agree there finally, but that still puts the onus on him, as an adult, to start making amends. He didn't want to give an in-person apology, maybe this will be the kick in the ass that will prompt him to reach out to his victims and even if just for show, being confronted with how he has impacted his victims might finally get him on that course of being a good person.

But no, at 18 years old and refusing to apologize to his victims while apologizing to random NHL teams show what he is as an adult, not what he was as a kid.
Oling_Roachinen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 06:12 PM   #235
cannon7
Needs More Cowbell
 
cannon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Not Canada, Eh?
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
You keep saying that most people want blood for his sins, that people want him to be raked over the coals forever, that people make you sick.
UND alumni are now calling for UND to revoke his scholarship.

That'll teach him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Most people just think he hasn’t done right until he’s done right by his victim, and aren’t ready to wish him well in an NHL career until he’s done that. And would otherwise prefer not to see him have one if he won’t. Why is that such a controversial thing to you?
Because he was a child. Maybe you're not a parent. But I would hardly trust one of my 14 year olds to take out the garbage properly.

Kids do stupid things. Really stupid things.

Adults aren't much better, clearly.
cannon7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 06:16 PM   #236
Oling_Roachinen
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Exp:
Default

cannon7 can you tell me why as an adult he didn't reach out? And why you think that's acceptable? And not just acceptable, but willing to give him a second chance for.

I'm not talking about as a 14 year old. He was an 18 year old with the foresight to reach out to NHL teams to offer "apologies" but not his actual victim? That's no longer when he was 14, I'm mad at his (in)actions as an adult more than anything.
Oling_Roachinen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 06:16 PM   #237
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cannon7 View Post
UND alumni are now calling for UND to revoke his scholarship.

That'll teach him!



Because he was a child. Maybe you're not a parent. But I would hardly trust one of my 14 year olds to take out the garbage properly.

Kids do stupid things. Really stupid things.

Adults aren't much better, clearly.
So what if he was a child? He’s an adult now. Doing something heinous as a child doesn’t excuse you as an adult for not doing right by your victim.

Again, why is it controversial that people not want to wish well until he, as an adult, does right by his victim?

EDIT: And this is what I’m talking about, did you read that article? “UND alumni are now calling for UND...”? Really? ONE UND alumni said on his own podcast, in his opinion, Miller’s actions disqualify him from getting a scholarship to UND, and he gives his reasons why that are specific to UND. Not only that, the way he frames it in a perfectly reasonable way. Nobody called on UND to revoke it, and certainly not multiple alumni like you suggest. Why distort the truth to make your point?

Last edited by PepsiFree; 10-27-2020 at 06:30 PM.
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 06:27 PM   #238
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Thank God the internet has taken it upon itself to mete out justice in this case. It always does such a good job at that.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CorsiHockeyLeague For This Useful Post:
Old 10-27-2020, 06:30 PM   #239
CalgaryFan1988
Franchise Player
 
CalgaryFan1988's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Exp:
Default

Our prime minister does blackface 3 times, one of the times while he has a banana in his pants and a picture of a monkey on his shirt. All this while he was in his 30's.

Internet verdict? It's ok, because he said sorry.


The internet is a fickle bitch.
CalgaryFan1988 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2020, 06:34 PM   #240
cannon7
Needs More Cowbell
 
cannon7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Not Canada, Eh?
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
So what if he was a child? He’s an adult now. Doing something heinous as a child doesn’t excuse you as an adult for not doing right by your victim.

Again, why is it controversial that people not want to wish well until he, as an adult, does right by his victim?
I don't know how old some of you are. But from here, an 18 year old is still a kid. Legally an adult, sure. But still in most other respects just a kid.

We sure expect a lot. On the pretense that if this kid delivered on every demand that we'd forgive.

But we won't. He'll apologize. And it won't be enough. So he'll lose his scholarship. And that still won't be enough. So he'll be hounded in whatever junior league he tries to enter and lose that, too. And still it won't be enough. He'll end up working at Dunkin Donuts or something and lose that, too. He'll be pursued until we forget what we were outraged about in the first place.

And for what? Because he deserves it? No.

Because there are a lot of people in this world with empty lives and they need this to fulfill them.

But it never does. Nor can it. Rinse and repeat.
cannon7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:53 PM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021