Like I said I have no problem with all the war, I'm worried about completely bumming out my kids as they get excited about this new badass girl in the universe only to have her die at the end. On the flip side it does serve as a good counter to all the happy ending stuff they are used to getting.
The take home message of Rogue One isn't that everyone dies, it is that they sacrificed themselves for a greater cause. They knew going in this mission was next to impossible but they still went and accomplished it at all costs.
They shouldn't be bummed by the lead dying but inspired by her selflessness. I think Disney did a good job of making these people out to be real heroes, even the Rebel Troopers dying at the end. He knew he was dead when the door jammed but he still got the plans through the crack because he knew it was above him. That is the feel good message of this movie and I found it inspiring.
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
I have to agree characters in TFA were more engaging but a few points. TFA was as much or more a fan service film. Heck the whole plot was a retread and it relied way more on fan endearment of familiar characters.
That's completely upside down The plot of TFA is only a retread if you know the originals. So saying that it's just a retread is saying that it's a WORSE film if you've seen the originals. Which might very well be true, but that's the exact opposite of "not standing on it's own".
(Also, it's the basic hero's journey story, which is hardly unique to Star Wars.)
Plus I don't see how it relies on fan endearment at all to sell the old characters. Han Solo especially has a quite sizable role in the film that doesn't really have much to do with the previous films, and it's a role that's perfectly understandable and relatable without any prior context. Chewbacca is the sidekick as always, again nothing that needs prior knowledge to understand, and he's just as likable (or not, personally I've never really seen the fascination with the furball). I don't remember what the robots do much, but IIRC C3PO is pretty much the annoying sidekick and thankfully isn't in the film that much.
R2D2 is completely replaced with a different robot. Again, I don't see how that character lies on prior knowledge of the universe.
I really don't understand what is so wrong with TFA having Starkiller base as a superweapon, and having the rebels destroy it.
The last evil power in the galaxy had a planet killing space station and they built it twice trying to control the galaxy. This is an upgraded version, an evolution of technology, an attempt by the evildoers to go beyond what almost worked into what they hope will work.
Is that any different than any other aspect of war? We don't give up when the enemy finds a way to defeat our tech, we amp up our tech to stay ahead of the enemy.
That's completely upside down The plot of TFA is only a retread if you know the originals. So saying that it's just a retread is saying that it's a WORSE film if you've seen the originals. Which might very well be true, but that's the exact opposite of "not standing on it's own".
(Also, it's the basic hero's journey story, which is hardly unique to Star Wars.)
Plus I don't see how it relies on fan endearment at all to sell the old characters. Han Solo especially has a quite sizable role in the film that doesn't really have much to do with the previous films, and it's a role that's perfectly understandable and relatable without any prior context. Chewbacca is the sidekick as always, again nothing that needs prior knowledge to understand, and he's just as likable (or not, personally I've never really seen the fascination with the furball). I don't remember what the robots do much, but IIRC C3PO is pretty much the annoying sidekick and thankfully isn't in the film that much.
R2D2 is completely replaced with a different robot. Again, I don't see how that character lies on prior knowledge of the universe.
I really like both films but I really think you're jumping through hoops to defend TFA.
It is only a retread if you've seen the original? Well, of course. That would go for literally any remake/re-imagining/reboot for any franchise.
The entire Han/Chewie/Leia/C3PO dynamics in the film are only relevant if you know the originals. Otherwise all the connections seem vastly underdeveloped.
I really don't understand what is so wrong with TFA having Starkiller base as a superweapon, and having the rebels destroy it.
The last evil power in the galaxy had a planet killing space station and they built it twice trying to control the galaxy. This is an upgraded version, an evolution of technology, an attempt by the evildoers to go beyond what almost worked into what they hope will work.
Is that any different than any other aspect of war? We don't give up when the enemy finds a way to defeat our tech, we amp up our tech to stay ahead of the enemy.
But is the first order really evildoers?
General Hux: Today is the end of the Republic. The end of a regime that acquiesces to disorder. At this very moment in a system far from here, the New Republic lies to the galaxy while secretly supporting the treachery of the rogues of the Resistance. This fierce machine which you have built, upon which we stand will bring an end to the Senate, to their cherished fleet. All remaining systems will bow to the First Order and will remember this as the last day of the Republic!
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I still don't understand why the New Republic's army is the Resistance. Since the First Order is the beaten Imperial remnant trying to get back on top, doesn't that make them the Resistance? and how did they gather the resources for a project an order of magnitude bigger than the Death Stars?
I think we need a movie about a band of Resistance fighters that are brought together to steal the technical plans for Starkiller base. then it would all make sense.
I still don't understand why the New Republic's army is the Resistance. Since the First Order is the beaten Imperial remnant trying to get back on top, doesn't that make them the Resistance? and how did they gather the resources for a project an order of magnitude bigger than the Death Stars?
I think we need a movie about a band of Resistance fighters that are brought together to steal the technical plans for Starkiller base. then it would all make sense.
Finn already told them the weakness of star killer base, aka the 3rd death star. Literally the entire battle plan was drawn up in about 6 or 7 seconds.
I really don't understand what is so wrong with TFA having Starkiller base as a superweapon, and having the rebels destroy it.
The last evil power in the galaxy had a planet killing space station and they built it twice trying to control the galaxy. This is an upgraded version, an evolution of technology, an attempt by the evildoers to go beyond what almost worked into what they hope will work.
Is that any different than any other aspect of war? We don't give up when the enemy finds a way to defeat our tech, we amp up our tech to stay ahead of the enemy.
I don't think having a Starkiller base itself is a problem for the rebels to have to destroy it, but it is a tried idea that has failed the Empire twice before. Having the First Order do something like this again, while supposedly being resource strapped defeated shadow of the Empire seems like a colossal waste of resources. It's not so much what's wrong with the base, but what's wrong with the premise.
There are also stupid flaws in the TFA's First Order that make it a lot less enjoyable that it takes away from the struggle the movie is supposed to portray. To defeat the Death Star the rebels had to get detailed plans and deliberate flaws built into the device. To defeat Starkiller had only a janitor with no real skills, some ad hoc bumbling plan involving a supposedly fearsome shiny storm trooper and the Falcon + X-Wings fly low for a couple of good shots. The list of recycled plot points and villain cliches goes on and on but just by having so many, it takes away from the movie and causes too much villain decay. First Order is like the Empire's ######ed inbred cousin. This isn't even addressing how shallow some of the new characters are themselves. Ren, Rey, Finn, etc.
Rogue One had a lot less flaws that didn't need to be glossed over.
Last edited by FlameOn; 12-22-2016 at 12:02 PM.
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I still don't understand why the New Republic's army is the Resistance. Since the First Order is the beaten Imperial remnant trying to get back on top, doesn't that make them the Resistance? and how did they gather the resources for a project an order of magnitude bigger than the Death Stars?
I think we need a movie about a band of Resistance fighters that are brought together to steal the technical plans for Starkiller base. then it would all make sense.
A lot of this stuff is being covered in the Aftermath books and the latest Princess Leia book (which are all really badly written).
But basically the First Order financed using the Criminal underworld that had risen to prominence when the Empire fell.
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I don't think having a Starkiller base itself is a problem for the rebels to have to destroy it, but it is a tried idea that has failed the Empire twice before. Having the First Order do something like this again, while supposedly being resource strapped defeated shadow of the Empire seems like a colossal waste of resources. It's not so much what's wrong with the base, but what's wrong with the premise.
There are also stupid flaws in the TFA's First Order that make it a lot less enjoyable that it takes away from the struggle the movie is supposed to portray. To defeat the Death Star the rebels had to get detailed plans and deliberate flaws built into the device. To defeat Starkiller had only a janitor with no real skills, some ad hoc bumbling plan involving a supposedly fearsome shiny storm trooper and the Falcon + X-Wings fly low for a couple of good shots. The list of recycled plot points and villain cliches goes on and on but just by having so many, it takes away from the movie and causes too much villain decay. First Order is like the Empire's ######ed inbred cousin. This isn't even addressing how shallow some of the new characters are themselves. Ren, Rey, Finn, etc.
Rogue One had a lot less flaws that didn't need to be glossed over.
Yes perfectly explained. Rogue One actually explains the plot holes of ANH. TFA had too many plot holes + recycled plot holes for me to enjoy.
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The take home message of Rogue One isn't that everyone dies, it is that they sacrificed themselves for a greater cause. They knew going in this mission was next to impossible but they still went and accomplished it at all costs.
They shouldn't be bummed by the lead dying but inspired by her selflessness. I think Disney did a good job of making these people out to be real heroes, even the Rebel Troopers dying at the end. He knew he was dead when the door jammed but he still got the plans through the crack because he knew it was above him. That is the feel good message of this movie and I found it inspiring.
Yah, but it's sometimes hard for kids to get that type of message. To them, their favorite character died, and it sucks. I remember bawling my eyes out when Optimus Prime died, and he's just a mechanical robot lol.
Exactly, while my kids (especially the 7yo) will understand it when it is explained to them I'm worried they'll be totally bummed out about the "new girl" getting killed. Like I said earlier the older one is all about wanting to know about the "new girl" in the movie, so she is very excited about that especially after Rey in TFA.
Yah, but it's sometimes hard for kids to get that type of message. To them, their favorite character died, and it sucks. I remember bawling my eyes out when Optimus Prime died, and he's just a mechanical robot lol.
Yen Man, how do you feel about Donnie Yen's role in the movie? It felt kind of wasted to me because he got his introduction then he just sort of tagged along with the crew until the end. It was strange he didn't get a moment to showcase himself at the end of the film aside from just blindly walking to the big switch.
Yen Man, how do you feel about Donnie Yen's role in the movie? It felt kind of wasted to me because he got his introduction then he just sort of tagged along with the crew until the end. It was strange he didn't get a moment to showcase himself at the end of the film aside from just blindly walking to the big switch.
Kinda felt like his talents were wasted since he didn't have that much fighting to do and 80% of his lines were identical. At least they didn't make him Groot.
I was expecting a lightsaber to pop out of the top of his staff given the hilt as he walked towards the switch, I was so happy when it didn't. Nice to see a force sensitive get some play in the big picture, they are a very popular theme in the table top games/rpg's surrounding Star Wars.
Spoiler!
__________________ "In brightest day, in blackest night / No evil shall escape my sight / Let those who worship evil's might / Beware my power, Green Lantern's light!"
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Yen Man, how do you feel about Donnie Yen's role in the movie? It felt kind of wasted to me because he got his introduction then he just sort of tagged along with the crew until the end. It was strange he didn't get a moment to showcase himself at the end of the film aside from just blindly walking to the big switch.
everyone expected him to awaken his flickering connection with the force and move that switch remotely. but what he did instead, which was pure bravery and selflessness in the face of certain death, was a lot more meaningful in my mind. I don't want Jedi powers to become the deus ex that gets Star Wars characters out of a jam every time.
the worst practitioner of this was Qui Gon. he nonstop used mind tricks and telekinesis on the dice to swindle Watto, to the point where it was just ridiculous and he could have just taken Anakin, his mom, and the hyperdrive without going through some dumb podrace bet.
Here's my conflict, both my girls have seen all the other Star Wars movies. They are 7 and 4 years old. The 7 year old asked me yesterday before I went to the movie what the new girls name is. I know they'll both love the movie but I'm not sure how they'll take everyone dying.
I'd consider talking to them beforehand and levelling with them that everyone's going to die. I don't think it's a spoiler to do so... Kids are more likely to be hoping for a happy ending that everyone else works out isn't in the cards.
everyone expected him to awaken his flickering connection with the force and move that switch remotely. but what he did instead, which was pure bravery and selflessness in the face of certain death, was a lot more meaningful in my mind. I don't want Jedi powers to become the deus ex that gets Star Wars characters out of a jam every time.
the worst practitioner of this was Qui Gon. he nonstop used mind tricks and telekinesis on the dice to swindle Watto, to the point where it was just ridiculous and he could have just taken Anakin, his mom, and the hyperdrive without going through some dumb podrace bet.
I always wondered about this but there were two things that prevented it. First of all Watto was immune to mind tricks and not stupid enough to gamble all three things. Second of all the slaves all had explosives planted in their body that for some reason Qui Gon couldn't find or remove, let alone both.
At the end of the day, Qui Gon wasn't a good jedi, they even pointed that out in the book, he was considered a renegade and pretty much against the Jedi Council, his reliance on using the living force was counter to what they were teaching.
In the end as big of a disaster as Obi was in training Anakin, My feeling is that Qui Gon would have been worse and not put up controls like Obi tried to do.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Yen Man, how do you feel about Donnie Yen's role in the movie? It felt kind of wasted to me because he got his introduction then he just sort of tagged along with the crew until the end. It was strange he didn't get a moment to showcase himself at the end of the film aside from just blindly walking to the big switch.
Selfishly, I wanted him to do more, and to see him kick a lot of ass, just to show the general audience how bad ass he can be, but I kind of didn't expect it. Overall, I guess I'm just ok with how his character turned out. Was still my most likeable character in the group, but I'm knowingly biased ha ha.
Am I over thinking it, or did they make this exact same joke by first showing this guy tracking the ships with his gun and then when they steal the ship they show him helpless to do anything?
The plot of TFA is only a retread if you know the originals. So saying that it's just a retread is saying that it's a WORSE film if you've seen the originals. Which might very well be true, but that's the exact opposite of "not standing on it's own".
