Liberal infighting over Real Time argument over Islam
So this all started two weekends ago with Bill Maher speaking with guest Sam Harris about liberal's failures to take on the bad ideas of Islam without it turning into cries of Islamaphobia and bigotry claims.
Like on queue, Ben Affleck does exactly this, anyhow you watch and decide yourself how you view this, its been a very hot discussion in the blogs, media and within humanist and atheist groups all over the world.
There is a ton of follow up to this, blogs, articles, video, but lets just start here with the discussion, firstly was Harris and Maher being bigoted and does the Left fail with regards to calling out Islam because of fears of being called bigots, Islamaphobes?
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Affleck doesn't come off well in the video because he is far too emotional about the subject.
But Maher, wow, what a clown. I used to have a lot of respect for the guy but he has some deep seated issues with Islam that taint everything he is claiming. That and the fact that Maher makes claims to statistics and "widely believed facts" about Islam that on the whole are not completely true, just to strengthen his argument.
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I'm not a fan of Maher, he did say one stupid generalized statement about Islam, however Harris was very careful to chose his words as he's accustomed to attacks of bigotry when he speaks about Islam.
Affleck came off very badly, might as well post Harris' post comments about this incident as he was quite taken aback by Afflecks hostility to him.
I admit that I was a little thrown by Affleck’s animosity. I don’t know where it came from, because we hadn’t met before I joined the panel. And it was clear from our conversation after the show that he is totally unfamiliar with my work. I suspect that among his handlers there is a fan of Glenn Greenwald who prepared him for his appearance by simply telling him that I am a racist and a warmonger.
Whatever the reason, if you watch the full video of our exchange (which actually begins before the above clip), you will see that Affleck was gunning for me from the start. What many viewers probably don’t realize is that the mid-show interview is supposed be a protected five-to-seven-minute conversation between Maher and the new guest—and all the panelists know this. To ignore this structure and encroach on this space is a little rude; to jump in with criticism, as Affleck did, is pretty hostile. He tried to land his first blow a mere 90 seconds after I took my seat, before the topic of Islam even came up.
Although I was aware that I wasn’t getting much love from Affleck, I didn’t realize how unfriendly he had been on the show until I watched it on television the next day. This was by no means a normal encounter between strangers. For instance: I said that liberalism was failing us on the topic of Islamic theocracy, and Affleck snidely remarked, “Thank God you’re here!” (This was his second interruption of my interview.) I then said, “We have been sold this meme of Islamophobia, where every criticism of the doctrine of Islam gets conflated with bigotry toward Muslims as people,” and Affleck jumped in for the third time, more or less declaring the mid-show interview over: “Now hold on—are you the person who understands the officially codified doctrine of Islam? You’re the interpreter of that?”
As many have since pointed out, Affleck and Nicholas Kristof then promptly demonstrated my thesis by mistaking everything Maher and I said about Islam for bigotry toward Muslims. Our statements were “gross,” “racist,” “ugly,” “like saying you’re a shifty Jew” (Affleck), and a “caricature” that has “the tinge (a little bit) of how white racists talk about African Americans” (Kristof).
The most controversial thing I said was: “We have to be able to criticize bad ideas, and Islam is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” This statement has been met with countless charges of “bigotry” and “racism” online and in the media. But imagine that the year is 1970, and I said: “Communism is the Mother lode of bad ideas.” How reasonable would it be to attack me as a “racist” or as someone who harbors an irrational hatred of Russians, Ukrainians, Chinese, etc. This is precisely the situation I am in. My criticism of Islam is a criticism of beliefs and their consequences—but my fellow liberals reflexively view it as an expression of intolerance toward people.
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I thought Harris (for what amount he was allowed to speak) came off quite well. He never really got to extrapolate, which is a shame.
Islam does need to take steps into this century. No doubt about that. But it was not too long ago, repression of Homosexuals and Women was something quite prominent in the christian religion. Less than 50 years ago, woman and homosexuals and even african americans were treated with little to no respect by the catholic church. Were they killing people? No, of course not. But if you want to talk about the motherload of bad ideas, you need to look at christianity, which is really only now moving values and viewpoints into the modern age. Islam is an older religion than Christianity, and sometimes with that history, change starts slow and then ends in firestorm.
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I'm very deep into Thanksgiving wine and beers... However, this argument happens consistently on CP (or similar arguments). My stance on equality is very similar to Ben Affleck's stance... Everyone paints with a brad brush and it's Bull Crap. How the ideas stop flooding in once I start typing... and they make little sense... (insert your jokes here you basterds!) I was genius man GENIUS as I was watching the discussion...
The panel want the same thing. Peace. They are arguing on how it's going to happen, but until we as a people start saying no to fossil fuels and other high profit BS we are going to find ways to make excuses to kill people, and then more excuses to kill the people who retaliate us from killing their people... When it comes down to it it is our fault as a nation. As a leading country we are a fault for being gluttons. The middle east were very much more western until we went after their oil... People keep peddling the notion that the other people are the bad ones when we and the USA are the biggest consumers of resources in the world.
Done my drunk rant... Sorry if there are spelling mistakes...
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I'm very deep into Thanksgiving wine and beers... However, this argument happens consistently on CP (or similar arguments). My stance on equality is very similar to Ben Affleck's stance... Everyone paints with a brad brush and it's Bull Crap. How the ideas stop flooding in once I start typing... and they make little sense... (insert your jokes here you basterds!) I was genius man GENIUS as I was watching the discussion...
The panel want the same thing. Peace. They are arguing on how it's going to happen, but until we as a people start saying no to fossil fuels and other high profit BS we are going to find ways to make excuses to kill people, and then more excuses to kill the people who retaliate us from killing their people... When it comes down to it it is our fault as a nation. As a leading country we are a fault for being gluttons. The middle east were very much more western until we went after their oil... People keep peddling the notion that the other people are the bad ones when we and the USA are the biggest consumers of resources in the world.
Done my drunk rant... Sorry if there are spelling mistakes...
The problems here (Iraq) and in Egypt are not just ones of economics (oil). There are societal issues as well. 3 groups of people being forced to live under one leader by outside forces (Britain and US propping up Hussein). The Kurds hate the Shi'Ite and don't particularly care for the Sunni, or any Arabs for that matter. The Shi'ite hate the Sunni and vice versa, and have for centuries (long story).
A systemic lack of education has created generations upon generations of sheep, unfortunately.
In Egypt, with the advent of the internet and knowledge sharing, you are seeing unrest because the youth are in revolt and the older generations are suppressing them, brutally, if they have to.
Islam is trying to change, I personally believe. I believe the new generations coming (minus those tainted by Jihadism) are going to make Islam a better religion. Change is dirty and its bloody. And that is what we are seeing right now. It doesn't happen overnight, it takes generations.
Oil is just that, it is a combustible that is being thrown in the mix of an already fiery situation. The Kurds are honestly some of the most progressive Muslims I have encountered in my travels.
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I thought Harris (for what amount he was allowed to speak) came off quite well. He never really got to extrapolate, which is a shame.
Islam does need to take steps into this century. No doubt about that. But it was not too long ago, repression of Homosexuals and Women was something quite prominent in the christian religion. Less than 50 years ago, woman and homosexuals and even african americans were treated with little to no respect by the catholic church. Were they killing people? No, of course not. But if you want to talk about the motherload of bad ideas, you need to look at christianity, which is really only now moving values and viewpoints into the modern age. Islam is an older religion than Christianity, and sometimes with that history, change starts slow and then ends in firestorm.
Harris is keen to go after all religions, but when he goes after Islam that is the only time he gets this kind of backlash, and its from the left.
Islam is older than Christianity? Correct me if I'm wrong but you have that backwards.
As for modernity and Islam, lets not forget that Islam was at one point a center of science, art, literature, it led the western world in many respects. But it went backwards and has sadly been co-opted by a movement that is at odds with the enlightenment values of the west.
Also here is Sam Harris responding again on the Last Word:
Also here is the PewPolls that a lot of people have been referring to when they suggest a lot of people support some very bad ideas in the Muslim world.
Affleck doesn't come off well in the video because he is far too emotional about the subject. And in doing so often resorts to the same bad argument tactics he so loud cries against when religious people use them. I like him for a lot of things, but he is highly opinionated and can never admit he's wrong.
But Maher, wow, what a clown. I used to have a lot of respect for the guy but he has some deep seated issues with Islam that taint everything he is claiming. That and the fact that Maher makes claims to statistics and "widely believed facts" about Islam that on the whole are not completely true, just to strengthen his argument.
It's probably less about his feelings about Islam and more about his feelings about religion in general. Mahar is a chest beating atheist.
Affleck does come off badly, but I wasn't that impressed with Harris either. A lot about what he said (says) has the feeling of 'there's lies, damned lies, and there's statistics' to it. The numbers could be true, but it's not the whole story, and it's probably cherry picked some.
The biggest issue I believe is simply the wealth and education levels of the countries that are Islamic or largely Islamic. I'm not going to say that as it exists in the world now, there are outdated, prejudicaln and even violent ideas and movements associated with Islam. Not just associated, but intertwined with. And yes, more so than other religions.
However, is that because of the religion, or simply because a lot of people practicing it are poor and uneducated? It's the latter. Anyone remember the dark ages of Christianity? Just as violent. Just as harmful towards women. They just didn't have modern weapons.
As it stands now, there is obviously some truth to what Harris preaches. But, it's framing the whole discussion incorrectly. It would be better to look at the practitioners of Islam in first world countries and compare it to other religions that are big in those nations. Then I believe you would find the stats quite similar.
Last edited by Daradon; 10-14-2014 at 04:46 AM.
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Harris is keen to go after all religions, but when he goes after Islam that is the only time he gets this kind of backlash, and its from the left.
Islam is older than Christianity? Correct me if I'm wrong but you have that backwards.
As for modernity and Islam, lets not forget that Islam was at one point a center of science, art, literature, it led the western world in many respects. But it went backwards and has sadly been co-opted by a movement that is at odds with the enlightenment values of the west.
Also here is Sam Harris responding again on the Last Word:
Also here is the PewPolls that a lot of people have been referring to when they suggest a lot of people support some very bad ideas in the Muslim world.
There are some fanatics over there but Western Society created them (mainstream). The west destroyed their life. Oil, death and greed created the Muslim fanatic today.
I'm not for religion but I'm for the RIGHT to believe in it.
It's probably less about his feelings about Islam and more about his feelings about religion in general. Mahar is a chest beating atheist.
Affleck does come off badly, but I wasn't that impressed with Harris either. A lot about what he said (says) has the feeling of 'there's lies, damned lies, and there's statistics' to it. The numbers could be true, but it's not the whole story, and it's probably cherry picked some.
The biggest issue I believe is simply the wealth and education levels of the countries that are Islamic or largely Islamic. I'm not going to say that as it exists in the world now, there are outdated, prejudicaln and even violent ideas and movements associated with Islam. Not just associated, but intertwined with. And yes, more so than other religions.
However, is that because of the religion, or simply because a lot of people practicing it are poor and uneducated? It's the latter. Anyone remember the dark ages of Christianity? Just as violent. Just as harmful towards women. They just didn't have modern weapons.
As it stands now, there is obviously some truth to what Harris preaches. But, it's framing the whole discussion incorrectly. It would be better to look at the practitioners of Islam in first world countries and compare it to other religions that are big in those nations. Then I believe you would find the stats quite similar.
Yup. Couldn't agree more.
If you look at his stat that 90% of Egyptians believe death should be the punishment for apostasy, if they chose to poll the older generations above 45, yep, you would probably see a higher percentage. But if you chose a group of younger, well educated Egyptians, you would more than likely see a response of less than 5% (number made up out of my head, just my belief from my understanding of the country and the people I have met).
It is possible to be critical of a person or group of people without denigrating them. In this case, both Maher, Harris and Affleck were wrong in each of their own ways. Affleck, saying generalizations of groups of people is wrong, while in most cases it is wrong, in some cases it is not. You have to listen to the exact argument that is being posited and what they are discussing before saying "ooh you're generalizing them, and that's bad". Maher and Harris were wrong for not fully thinking before speaking and not wording what the concepts that they were trying to convey correctly.
Islam does have problems and does need to have some criticism levied it's way. The Catholic church has it's problems and has had criticism levied it's way. Islams' main problem is it reticence with modernity. Most of society has entered the 21st century in it's acceptance of people and their own ways of doing things. The current catholic pope has recognized this shift in the manner in which most of western culture acts and reacts to these things and is shifting church policy accordingly. He's gone so far as to become accepting of gays, which is something I never thought would ever come from there.
Islam though in part seems stuck in the 13th century (mostly the extremists) in their behaviour and attitudes, especially towards women. Because of this lack of modernity, it should be allowed to be criticized without being slammed by people like Affleck. If norms are not challenged, then they cannot be changed and the only way to really challenge a set of norms is to levy criticism. That does not get aided by the disrespect shown by Maher/Harris by saying that it's the motherload of bad ideas and other stupid comments. Islam is no more or less inherently good or inherently bad than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. It is how the religion is practiced that is a problem. The tenants of Islam are actually extremely peaceful and intellectually based. However, a sizable portion of the followers are selective with how they view the tenants of their religion, much in the same manner that some Christians quote Leviticus to slam gays. This selective reading is the vehicle that lead to extremism in the first place.
In order for progress to be made in the Muslim culture, they need to modernize. In order to not come across as a jerk and shut down the receptiveness of the people you're trying to convince to change, you have to have well thought out ideas and suggestions to help facilitate change. By selectively criticizing the ideas and concepts that do not comport with modern society in a way most of the world find acceptable, you are not attacking the person for the entirety of their beliefs, just a few concepts. Saying that Islam is the motherload of bad ideas is directly attacking the person for believing in Islam, and that should not be acceptable.
Nuance is key to a discussion like this, and none of them were nuanced in their approach to the conversation.
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Last edited by Caged Great; 10-14-2014 at 05:00 AM.
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There are some fanatics over there but Western Society created them. The west destroyed their life. Oil, death and greed created the Muslim fanatic today.
I'm not for religion but I'm for the RIGHT to believe in it.
The hard core beliefs and interpretations of Sharia law predate the wests need for oil. They were just doing it to each other and the internet didnt exist so we didn't know as much about it.
But I do agree that western meddling in the economic and political structures of the Islamic countries destabilized the regions to the point that the powerful fringe could grab hold.
It is possible to be critical of a person or group of people without denigrating them. In this case, both Maher, Harris and Affleck were wrong in each of their own ways. Affleck, saying generalizations of groups of people is wrong, while in most cases is wrong, in some cases it is not. You have to listen to the exact argument that is being posited and what they are discussing before saying "ooh you're generalizing them, and that's bad". Maher and Harris were wrong for not fully thinking before speaking and not wording what the concepts that they were trying to convey correctly.
Islam does have problems and does need to have some criticism levied it's way. The Catholic church has it's problems and has had criticism levied it's way. Islams' main problem is it reticence with modernity. Most of society has entered the 21st century in it's acceptance of people and their own ways of doing things. The current catholic pope has recognized this shift in the manner in which most of western culture acts and reacts to these things and is shifting church policy accordingly. He's gone so far as to become accepting of gays, which is something I never thought would ever come from there.
Islam though in part seems stuck in the 13th century (mostly the extremists) in their behaviour and attitudes, especially towards women. Because of this lack of modernity, it should be allowed to be criticized without being slammed by people like Affleck. If norms are not challenged, then they cannot be changed and the only way to really challenge a set of norms is to levy criticism. That does not get aided by the disrespect shown by Maher/Harris by saying that it's the motherload of bad ideas and other stupid comments. Islam is no more or less inherently good or inherently bad than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. It is how the religion is practiced that is a problem. The tenants of Islam are actually extremely peaceful and intellectually based. However, a sizable portion of the followers are selective with how they view the tenants of their religion, much how some Christians quote Leviticus to slam gays. This selective reading is the vehicle that lead to the extremism in the first place.
In order for progress to be made in the Muslim culture, they need to modernize. In order to not come across as a jerk and shut down the receptiveness of the people you're trying to convince to change, you have to have well thought out ideas and suggestions to help facilitate change. By selectively criticizing the ideas and concepts that do not comport with modern society is a way most of the world find acceptable, you are not attacking the person for the entirety of their beliefs, just a few concepts. Saying that Islam is the motherload of bad ideas is directly attacking the person for believing in Islam, and that should not be acceptable.
Nuance is key to a discussion like this, and none of them were nuanced in their approach to the conversation.
Much agree. So right.
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One thing I would have liked for someone to have done was, question the pewpolls that Maher and Harris were quoting.
Ask them to explain how the pewpolls they were quoting were produces, what numbers were polled, countries and what controls were utilized in said polling.
If Maher and Harris couldn't answer and don't know enough about the information they are using as gospel, then they shouldn't be cherry picking information useful for their arguments.
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Liberal infighting over Real Time argument over Islam
