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Old 10-23-2021, 03:00 PM   #3081
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Old 10-23-2021, 04:11 PM   #3082
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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
Derp derp derpity derpity derp.
It's not spin. It is the way the process works. You have no idea how grants work, and even when someone is polite enough to explain it to you, you bury your head between you butt cheeks and ignore reality. It's amazing that someone who knows nothing about the grant process can actually sit there and tell someone who has successfully applied for, and executed more than a dozen federal and state grants, that they are spinning the grant process. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? No, you don't. Grants, like every department of government are rife with bureaucracy and process that creates intentional compartmentalization, so the scientific method is not impacted by the wishes of politicos. The system is setup this way and it runs surprisingly efficiently, and protects the scientific method.

I can't people understand the understandable, especially someone like you. You're someone who believes anything they read on the Internet and think it is some kind of proof of things that don't exist. You believe that people in administrative roles have this all-seeing-all-knowing power, even when they move beyond the purview in question. This is as far from reality as it gets. Compartmentalization makes knowing everything virtually impossible (even the President). The grant process is intended to keep the process blind so the research guides outcomes, instead of predetermined outcomes dreamed up by administrators or politicos. But again, how would someone who has no education or experience with process have any idea? Oh, because they read about it on some website, written by an author who also has no idea about the inner workings of the grant process. They are right, and those who know are wrong.

BTW, just so you are clear, the President doesn't know everything either. Spoiler alert! There is no President's Book of Secrets. The executive have flunkies who gather information for them, and they are constrained by the same rules that any department head would be subject to. Information is compartmentalized and reports only tell so much of a story. When a final report is not scheduled until 2024, the only document reviewable is the one approved for release. In this particular case, the proposal. That is the way things are. You can try and deny it all you want, but that is reality. The coolest things about this, for morons who don't believe this to be the case, there is a process called the Freedom of Information Act, that allows access to the inner workings of governmental agencies.

If you believe this is wrong I strongly encourage you to make a FOIA request to NIH, specific to Grant R01AI10694, and ask for all final records pertaining to this process. The returns will be the proposal. I then encourage you to request all documents pertaining to the grant. Because it is still in the administrative phase of the grant, you are very likely going to receive only the proposal again. Why? Because of the shield the scientific process receives from the administrative processes, and the clear separation between church and state (scientific inquiry versus administrative function). Everything else is actually covered by the grantee, and private until the final grant report is produced.
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Old 10-23-2021, 06:31 PM   #3083
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Again, useless drivel.

When there is a lab outbreak from Wuhan, people go look to see what is going on. Months later when you as the big dog in charge are asked if funding was in place and you say 'no it wasn't', and then another few months later your institution corrects you on RECORD, it means you lied.

This isn't something asked off the cuff which he could pull the Zuckerberg answer too and say 'I don't have an answer for you at this time but my team will get back to you.' He almost certainly knew the question was coming during he hearing, knew what had happened, and lied.

And if he didn't actually know at the time of the hearing, it means he's even more of a moron and should be fired immediately. The gain of function research could be essential to breaking down the virus to help treat treatment and prevent further outbreak. I guess he isn't aware of that either.

So again, useless drivel and spin. But of course, totally expected.
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Old 10-23-2021, 06:39 PM   #3084
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Lanny is correct. The higher levels of government may be involved in setting general direction research should be concentrating on and approving budgets but they aren’t involved in grant review or approval processes. Those things are shielded from what’s happening on the hill. The biggest thing that happens in those offices is the picture of the president and responsible cabinet member gets changed in the lobby.

I’m speaking from a background as someone who has been in many of those offices, helped write multiple full grant proposals that received funding, many more that didn’t get funding and usually don’t get past a white paper stage, had continuing funding for projects denied and am literally preparing responses to reviewers on another grant that are due end of day Monday.

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Old 10-23-2021, 06:44 PM   #3085
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Nobody is saying he personally approved the grant or was part of the research.

I am saying that the story was circulating for months that the NIH potentially funded gain of function research in Wuhan. There is NO way that him and his team didn't look into the situation given how serious it was, and there is NO way he didn't 100% know the answer when he was asked on the record.

It is like saying the PM of Canada isn't aware of what happened at the lab in Winnipeg, but they can't hand over the information to media requests because it is extremely sensitive.

The big players get briefed on this stuff and know. To act otherwise is naive and stupid.
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Old 10-23-2021, 10:27 PM   #3086
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Azure, retreat to fight another day. You’re wrong and don’t know what you’re talking about. Shut up and walk away.
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Old 10-23-2021, 10:45 PM   #3087
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
That has been going on since long before Trump, focusing on Trump draws attention away from that and allows it to continue happening. Trump didn’t come up with the ideas of gerrymandering voting districts, Fox News, the term “fake news”, gaslighting, promoting divisiveness, or convincing people that “freedom” means laws don’t apply to you.
No US president comes close to Trump in terms of making false/misleading claims with such frequency & brazenness, gaslighting the American public, calling any news outlet which tries to hold him to account "the enemy of the people", and doing all the things you just listed. Those things existed before Trump, but he shot them up on steriods. So no, focusing on Trump does not draw attention away from any of that, it draws attention onto it. This stuff pretty much defines what he and his movement is all about. Let's not forget, polls still consistently show that Trump is by far the frontrunner to win the Republican 2024 nomination, so there's a renewed danger to American democracy on the horizon. Why on Earth should the media ignore it?

With Biden's approval rating slipping in recent weeks, people seem to have short memories when it comes to the horror that was the Trump presidency. The greatest mistake would be to allow that catastrophe to be forgotten.
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Old 10-23-2021, 11:54 PM   #3088
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And he did everything to avoid the bait and not talk about Trump. The rest of the interview (not in this clip), he doesn't really mention Trump at all.

Regardless, it's a pretty stupid "gotcha" by dino to bring that up rather than engage with the actual content of Stewart's message.
You can't let Trump get away with murder because its a distraction and the democrats are bad too
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Old 10-24-2021, 12:17 PM   #3089
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On Wednesday, the NIH sent a letter to members of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce that acknowledged two facts. One was that EcoHealth Alliance, a New York City–based nonprofit that partners with far-flung laboratories to research and prevent the outbreak of emerging diseases, did indeed enhance a bat coronavirus to become potentially more infectious to humans, which the NIH letter described as an “unexpected result” of the research it funded that was carried out in partnership with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The second was that EcoHealth Alliance violated the terms of its grant conditions stipulating that it had to report if its research increased the viral growth of a pathogen by tenfold.

The NIH based these disclosures on a research progress report that EcoHealth Alliance sent to the agency in August, roughly two years after it was supposed to. An NIH spokesperson told Vanity Fair that Dr. Fauci was “entirely truthful in his statements to Congress,” and that he did not have the progress report that detailed the controversial research at the time he testified in July. But EcoHealth Alliance appeared to contradict that claim, and said in a statement: “These data were reported as soon as we were made aware, in our year four report in April 2018.”
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021...-in-wuhan?s=03

But no, he didn't know. Right.
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Old 10-24-2021, 12:31 PM   #3090
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What a mess the US is, the list is endless. From supply chain shortages, to energy prices, to the southern border disaster, inflation rate, gang violence, Covid still running rampant. Nine months in and it’s spiralled out of control, this was predicted by many on the right but I don’t think anybody thought it would come this fast. And they continue to focus on distractions. What will be the first shoe to drop?
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Old 10-24-2021, 12:53 PM   #3091
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What a mess the US is, the list is endless. From supply chain shortages, to energy prices, to the southern border disaster, gang violence, Covid still running rampant. Nine months in and it’s spiralled out of control, this was predicted by many on the right but I don’t think anybody thought it would come this fast. What will be the first shoe to drop?
supply chain shortages, to energy prices

this is a mess the whole world is in, in the UK they are going short of food, gas prices have risen by 250% in a week so over here in N America we are doing pretty well, the border is no worse or better than it was under Trump and Covid is doing massively better, its only the moronic Trump voters that arent protecting themselves and so are catching Covid and dying, and personally I think that's a Darwinistic bonus
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Old 10-24-2021, 03:18 PM   #3092
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No US president comes close to Trump in terms of making false/misleading claims with such frequency & brazenness, gaslighting the American public, calling any news outlet which tries to hold him to account "the enemy of the people", and doing all the things you just listed. Those things existed before Trump, but he shot them up on steriods. So no, focusing on Trump does not draw attention away from any of that, it draws attention onto it. This stuff pretty much defines what he and his movement is all about. Let's not forget, polls still consistently show that Trump is by far the frontrunner to win the Republican 2024 nomination, so there's a renewed danger to American democracy on the horizon. Why on Earth should the media ignore it?

With Biden's approval rating slipping in recent weeks, people seem to have short memories when it comes to the horror that was the Trump presidency. The greatest mistake would be to allow that catastrophe to be forgotten.
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You can't let Trump get away with murder because its a distraction and the democrats are bad too
There is a big difference between not holding someone accountable and pretending that political opponents and news media focusing entirely on what that person did is going to actually fix anything today. Trump is and always was a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
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Old 10-24-2021, 05:55 PM   #3093
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Hahahahaha. The article you just presented complete supports what has been said. Again, you don't understand the grant process and how reporting takes place. It also seems the author didn't either, which is a little concerning. I'll go through this slowly, but try and keep up. From the report:

"On September 20, a group of internet sleuths calling themselves DRASTIC (short for Decentralized Radical Autonomous Search Team Investigating COVID-19) released a leaked $14 million grant proposal that EcoHealth Alliance had submitted in 2018 to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)."

This would be the grant proposal that was approved in 2019 and was scheduled to be completed in 2024. Consistent with the grant process. We are talking about the proposal, and the proposal stage, which is the only information publicly available. The Internet sleuths outdid themselves, digging up a document that is public knowledge and available through a FOIA request.

"The NIH’s letter to Congress stated that the agency is giving EcoHealth five days to submit any unpublished data from the experiments it funded."

This is again consistent with the process. The unpublished findings are part of the reporting process, which this grant is currently in, and would remain in until the grant runs out and is to be closed out. This is where you publish your findings and have them peer reviewed. So in this particular instance, the grant would have a number of quarterly and yearly reports made to the grant coordination office, and only they would have that to validate the grant was on course and money could be released.

Oh, maybe you didn't know this. Money is not just doled out once the grant is awarded. There are quarterly and yearly reports (depending on the type of grant) that have to be submitted so money can be released to pay for equipment, salaries, and research. In this particular instance, they have been awarded a $14M grant, but they must provide supporting documentation for the release of funds before any money hits the project. They don't get a $14M money drop, they have access to up to $14M in funding, and have to provide support for spending requests in these quarterly or yearly reports. The only ones who know about this is stuff are the grant administrators who make a general report on the status of grants, whether they are ahead of schedule, on schedule, or behind schedule, and then the money allocated. No other details are shared.

The quote you some how misunderstood, "On Wednesday, the NIH sent a letter to members of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce that acknowledged two facts. One was that EcoHealth Alliance, a New York City–based nonprofit that partners with far-flung laboratories to research and prevent the outbreak of emerging diseases, did indeed enhance a bat coronavirus to become potentially more infectious to humans, which the NIH letter described as an “unexpected result” of the research it funded that was carried out in partnership with the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The second was that EcoHealth Alliance violated the terms of its grant conditions stipulating that it had to report if its research increased the viral growth of a pathogen by tenfold."

They failed to report. When would this report have happened? That's right. During the quarterly or yearly progress report check in. Would this have mattered? Maybe, maybe not. The information would have been shared and a deficiency would have been noted. The grantee would have been asked to explain the deficiency and the grant administrators would have reviewed the terms to determine of the deficiency was worthy of the grant being canceled. Usually this type of thing results in a suspension of the grant until the grantee and provide explanation. If the explanation is not sufficient, the grant can be terminated and the final report required usually within 90 days. This appears to be the case since the grant was suspended, then reinstated, and the research continued.

"The NIH based these disclosures on a research progress report that EcoHealth Alliance sent to the agency in August, roughly two years after it was supposed to."

There we go. The research progress reports were late. Were there extenuating circumstances that could have explained this that Vanity Fair did not bother to delve into? Yep. There was a global pandemic sourced back to this particular lab that the Chinese placed a massive gag order over and controlled all information coming in and out. This may have prevented the results from that lab being available for a progress report.

"An NIH spokesperson told Vanity Fair that Dr. Fauci was “entirely truthful in his statements to Congress,” and that he did not have the progress report that detailed the controversial research at the time he testified in July. An NIH spokesperson told Vanity Fair that Dr. Fauci was “entirely truthful in his statements to Congress,” and that he did not have the progress report that detailed the controversial research at the time he testified in July.”

As expected. These reports are confidential and not available until the grant closeout is completed.

Here's where things get really sketchy.

"But EcoHealth Alliance appeared to contradict that claim, and said in a statement: “These data were reported as soon as we were made aware, in our year four report in April 2018.”

EcoHealth Alliance submitted their proposal in 2018. The grant was approved in 2019. How could they have made a year four report made prior to the awarding of the grant? This isn't right. Their year four report would have been due in 2023. So this is obviously a dodge on their part, attempting to limit damage to their organization and reputation. Which is supported in this from the article.

"EcoHealth Alliance said in a statement that the science clearly proved that its research could not have led to the pandemic, and that it was “working with the NIH to promptly address what we believe to be a misconception about the grant’s reporting requirements and what the data from our research showed.”"

This is also where the article goes off the path and leads me to believe they are talking about two different grants and have the facts completely mixed up.

"Early last month, The Intercept published more than 900 pages of documents it obtained through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit against the NIH, relating to EcoHealth Alliance’s grant research. But there was one document missing, a fifth and final progress report that EcoHealth Alliance had been required to submit at the end of its grant period in 2019."

This is NOT the same grant they were talking about at the start of the article. These grants run a five year cycle and the first discussion was about a proposal submitted in 2018, and then approved in 2019. This last paragraph states that there was a 5th and final progress report (the close out report) missing from 2019. You can't have a 5th reporting period for a grant that was just approved. They are talking about two separate grants here.

Which leads us to this gem to close out.

"Meanwhile, members of the DRASTIC coalition have continued their research. As one member, Gilles Demaneuf, a data scientist in New Zealand, told Vanity Fair, “I cannot be sure that [COVID-19 originated from] a research-related accident or infection from a sampling trip. But I am 100% sure there was a massive cover-up.”"

It would help if the article and DRASTIC were not talking about two separate grants and making people believe there was just one. These are clearly separate grants and outcomes being discussed, so again, all statements can be true and can be wrong at the same time.
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Old 10-24-2021, 06:18 PM   #3094
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There is a big difference between not holding someone accountable and pretending that political opponents and news media focusing entirely on what that person did is going to actually fix anything today. Trump is and always was a symptom of the problem, not the cause.
He's an opportunist. He recognized those problems, knew how to capitalize on them for his own gain while making them much worse. He is both symptom and cause.

There are major problems ongoing today such as supply chain issues and vaccine hesitancy, but there is no magic bullet solution to make these problems go away overnight. What do you suggest be done? What more could the Biden administration be doing? Instead of just saying "talking about Trump won't fix anything", actually suggest solutions...

As for the news media, it is important that they correctly identify where many of today's problems originated from: the Trump administration's woefully inadequate response to the pandemic, and vaccine hesitancy that he exacerbated by stoking the fires of distrust and anti-science sentiment. Again, I'm not sure what you want them to be talking about or how you think ignoring Trump will actually solve anything.
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Old 10-24-2021, 08:56 PM   #3095
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You can't let Trump get away with murder because its a distraction and the democrats are bad too
Yes, there is literally zero middle ground between not giving attention to an attention whore and letting them get away with murder. Very nuanced analysis.
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Old 10-25-2021, 09:20 AM   #3096
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Jan. 6 protest organizers say they participated in ‘dozens’ of planning meetings with members of congress and white house staff.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...house-1245289/

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“I remember Marjorie Taylor Greene specifically,” the organizer says. “I remember talking to probably close to a dozen other members at one point or another or their staffs.”
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Old 10-25-2021, 10:57 AM   #3097
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That was predictable, and the very reason why Republicans wanted this swept under the rug as quickly as possible.
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Old 10-25-2021, 11:48 AM   #3098
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He's an opportunist. He recognized those problems, knew how to capitalize on them for his own gain while making them much worse. He is both symptom and cause.

There are major problems ongoing today such as supply chain issues and vaccine hesitancy, but there is no magic bullet solution to make these problems go away overnight. What do you suggest be done? What more could the Biden administration be doing? Instead of just saying "talking about Trump won't fix anything", actually suggest solutions...

As for the news media, it is important that they correctly identify where many of today's problems originated from: the Trump administration's woefully inadequate response to the pandemic, and vaccine hesitancy that he exacerbated by stoking the fires of distrust and anti-science sentiment. Again, I'm not sure what you want them to be talking about or how you think ignoring Trump will actually solve anything.
Most of the supply chain stuff has nothing to do with Biden or any Federal jurisdiction.

As an example, the city of Long Beach just got pressured into waiving the "you can only stack containers in storage yards two high" zoning rule.

That instantly creates way more storage space near the ports and should help quite a bit.

But long Beach zoning, ALWU labour relations/terminals not paying overtime, and the trucker shortage are all not really federal issues.

Somewhat ironically peobably the best thing Biden could do to help would be keep line 5 going. If that fuel needs to travel by truck it will pull truckers to that job, exacerbating the shortage.
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Old 10-25-2021, 11:53 AM   #3099
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POS Donald Trump Jr. is selling the following t-shirts:
Guns don’t kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people
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Old 10-25-2021, 12:33 PM   #3100
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POS Donald Trump Jr. is selling the following t-shirts:
Guns don’t kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people
k, I can kinda see the humour in that, though.
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