Practice Mar 23: Versteeg done for the season. Monahan shutdown & needs surgery.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I think people don't like that fact that Ferland doesn't take ticky tack hooking/slashing/holding penalties and instead is a disciplined player (who can still kick your ass if you piss him off).


He should take more terrible penalties to increase toughness factor.

When’s the last time he kicked anyone’s ass? I’m sorry but a supposed tough, physical player should be in the range of 80+ penalty minutes through roughing minors as well as the odd five minute major. 24 minutes of penalties is way too Brodie-like for a guy that’s supposed to be gritty or tough especially when he’s played a lot with Gaudreau and should be making players accountable for taking liberties with the Flames best player.

[browna]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Same could be said about Sean Monahan. How would Monahan's numbers (and perceived consistency) look if he and Jankowski or Stajan swapped roles (5v5, 3v3, 4v4, PP)? It just sounds like a crazy thing to do, but it's a valid question.

The difference between Lazar and Ferland is more than just who they played with.

Monahan put up 22 goals and 34 points as a rookie. Pre Gaudreau. And playing against much better line opponents then Jankowski on a much poorer team.

Ridiculous notion that he’s just a rider of coattails.

Lazar and Ferland can both go. Ferland was removed from the first line for Jagr he had such a poor start to the season. Then ended the season with one goal so far in almost 2 calendar months. Sure some of this recent slump was injury but no way can our top line have that much fluctuation. Last year he was non existent the first 3 months as well until injuries have him a shot st the top line, the year before, totally non existent. He can finish, and play somewhat of a heavy game, but if not on the top line he’s proven to be very average.

Lazar is here because of Cameron, enough said. Most on here would rather have retained the second round pick.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I was thinking about Bennett not Lazar.

Yes you have a point, when Monahan does not get 5 on 5 points he has the opportunity to supplement with PP and OT points. And this reflects well on him.

I think Ferland had 2 hot streaks that kept him on the top line, disappeared for games on end and needed to be demoted to the 4th to remind him that he can not coast in his own talent, he needs to work. I believe he is the beneficiary of playing with two linemates who are better than him.

I feel that Rene Bourque has a high end, on good days, that he did not sustain and is an apt comparison for Ferland.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by browna

Monahan put up 22 goals and 34 points as a rookie.

Monahan played more power play minutes as a rookie (152.9) than Ferland has this season (133.92) or Bennett (95) or Jankowski(44.13) or Stajan(3.18)


Monahan as a rookie played 5v5 hockey (1.47 P/60) mostly on lines with Jiri Hudler (a team leading 1.92 P/60 which would also be better than anyone not on our top line this year) and Joe Colborne (1.48 P/60... or the exact same production as Monahan).

Monahan's a good player, but that doesn't mean usage - power play, 3 on 3, linemates, double shifting, etc, don't affect a player's perceived consistency. You can only truly compare players who get the same usage or in situations where they got the same usage.

And I'm not complaining about Monahan riding coattails. I'm telling you that usage is a factor and saying Ferland got first line minutes is patently false, and saying that Monahan is far more consistent than Ferland is overlooking the fact that he's put in situations to be perceived as so. I never even called Monahan inconsistent, as I think injuries derailed his season and simultaneously that affected Ferland too. Ferland played his best hockey when Monahan played his best hockey, and his worst hockey when Monahan played his worst hockey.

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think Ferland had 2 hot streaks that kept him on the top line, disappeared for games on end and needed to be demoted to the 4th to remind him that he can not coast in his own talent, he needs to work. I believe he is the beneficiary of playing with two linemates who are better than him.

You're setting unrealistic expectations and then adding a sensationalist storyline. NHL players are streaky. All of them. Even the superstars - even Malkin and McDavid. And the superstars are given far more opportunity to look passable when they're not on a hot streak, and far more opportunity to make those hot streaks look better.

Is Ferland any less consistent than other NHL players averaging 15 minutes a game? Does producing 8 games in a row and not producing 8 games in a row have less value than producing one game and then not producing the next game over a sixteen game period? What matters is having the ability to produce, and that's not going to come every night, but it's not by chance that Ferland produces with our top line.

There are only six players with similar ATOI who have 20+ goals this season.

James Van Reimsdyk
Kevin Fiala
Craig Smith
Micheal Ferland
Tomas Vanek
Michael Grabner

JVR plays soft minutes, usually with Mitch Marner who is an offensive dynamo and Tyler Bozak.
Fiala and Smith actually play together on the same line.
Grabner scored most of his goals on empty nets.
Which leaves Ferland and Vanek. Vanek has eight more power play points than Ferland but only two more points. I'm not sure what that means but Vancouver is 9th in PP% and Calgary is 26th (Ferland being 3rd on our team in PP Goals but certainly not 3rd in PP ice time). I'd hardly put the woes of our power play on Ferland.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I acknowledge your comment about first line minutes and your point about other situations.

When I said Ferland got first line minutes I meant he got minutes with first line players. You know, minutes playing on the top line. Not patently false, just that you are putting a different definition on top line minutes . Which is fine

I admire the effort you put in to defending Ferland. Sometimes people are the beneficiaries of their situation. Heck, Bernie Nichols, a 20 goal guy got 70 one year when Gretzky went to LA

I am not creating a sensationalistic story by saying Ferland plays well, then disappears, gets demoted to the 4th and plays a bit more focused when he gets the chance. It has happened a couple of times.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I am not creating a sensationalistic story by saying Ferland plays well, then disappears, gets demoted to the 4th and plays a bit more focused when he gets the chance. It has happened a couple of times.

Multiple times?

Ferland was taken off of Monahan's line three times.

One of those times was when Monahan was playing equally as poorly to open the season. Jagr helped kickstart that line and both Monahan and Ferland starting playing better because they were naturally going to eventually starting playing better. Ferland didn't start playing "harder".

The other one of those times was after the Nashville game where he got injured but before his injury was revealed and he was shut down for a handful of games. I'd hardly crucify a guy for playing through an injury.

The third time is right now, where Monahan has been playing just as poorly as Ferland on that top line, again. Both players have probably been toughing it out through injury. And Ferland has something like five points in his last seven or eight games.

Player plays well when his linemates play well. Same player struggles when his linemates are struggling.

Bringing in storylines like "needed to be demoted to the 4th to remind him that he can not coast in his own talent, he needs to work " is very much sensationalist. He has worked as hard as his linemates and he has produced as well as his linemates. He has even produced at times when Monahan's been invisible at 5v5. Monahan's a better player than Ferland, but all this nonsense about players needing to be reminded of their place is just silly. It's the kind of crap I wouldn't put past Glen Gulutzan, but I also don't have the highest opinion of the coach who has ruined the development Sam Bennett.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ ok whatever. 6x6

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

What better time to find out if he actually *can*?

Lazar has 15 goals in 238 games. He can't.

If Lazar wants to stay in the NHL long term, I hope he's soaking up everything he can from Matt Stajan about how to be a good 4th liner and penalty killing specialist. Because those are roles he has shown some capability in.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ ok whatever. 6x6

I call him opposite guy. Take whatever he posts and apply the opposite of what he says and it then makes sense.