Gas prices in Calgary

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Corral

Another public policy gaffe brought to you by the 40 year PC dynasty. Focus almost entirely on maximizing exports for short term gain, sell cheap, and be a price taker on refined products. Brilliant.

So you want the government building refineries now?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Locke

haha, I don't know what's going on here.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by nik-

So you want the government building refineries now?

What? No, that's not how it works. First you need a private company to invest a bunch of money, they you dither while the protesters take over, THEN you buy the plan for the refinery at inflated value. Finally, with expert government project management, you build the thing, and recoup the cost overruns through taxes.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What? No, that's not how it works. First you need a private company to invest a bunch of money, they you dither while the protesters take over, THEN you buy the plan for the refinery at inflated value. Finally, with expert government project management, you build the thing, and recoup the cost overruns through taxes.

That's not exactly what happened in AB with the sturgeon refinery, but it rhymes.

[Corral]

I'll believe in the free market to set prices for retail gasoline when there is real information transparency on prices. Until then .... i assume there is a healthy dose of price fixation going on here.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Corral

I'll believe in the free market to set prices for retail gasoline when there is real information transparency on prices. Until then .... i assume there is a healthy dose of price fixation going on here.

So just unsubstantiated emotion then hey? Will this do?
https://www.shell.ca/en_ca/motorists...l-pricing.html

[Ironhorse]

So then why does the Strathmore Shell have regular @ 128.9, and the Shell near my house in (and pretty much all other gas stations) in Calgary have regular @ 136.9 on the same afternoon?

[Fuzz]

Wild guess, but I'd assume the one by you bought the gas for more, and the Strathmore one just got a cheaper load. They won't sell it for less than they paid, unless forced.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

So then why does the Strathmore Shell have regular @ 128.9, and the Shell near my house in (and pretty much all other gas stations) in Calgary have regular @ 136.9 on the same afternoon?

Is gas in strathmore typically cheaper than the city?

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by GGG

Is gas in strathmore typically cheaper than the city?

Nope. It varies, just like it can vary depending on what part of the city you’re in.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

So then why does the Strathmore Shell have regular @ 128.9, and the Shell near my house in (and pretty much all other gas stations) in Calgary have regular @ 136.9 on the same afternoon?

How come bread costs more at co-op than superstore?

How come books cost more at indigo than Amazon?

Etc

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

So then why does the Strathmore Shell have regular @ 128.9, and the Shell near my house in (and pretty much all other gas stations) in Calgary have regular @ 136.9 on the same afternoon?

All gas stations @ 136.9?

What's the price at Costco? What's the price at Gas Plus?

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

So just unsubstantiated emotion then hey? Will this do?
https://www.shell.ca/en_ca/motorists...l-pricing.html

No this isn't transparency. Real transparency is generated when industry players are required to report pricing and factors which influence pricing to an independent monitoring agency in real time (or close thereto) who then transmits to the public - and audits industry on a regular basis. The best example of this model is of course the capital markets. Commodity pools are amongst the darkest areas of the capital markets - have been for decades. So no surprise the retail market is likewise or worse.

Linking me to a Shell page which embeds links to old data - NRCAN website is like 2 years old and one of the other sources is listed at 2007/2008 - not good enough.

[burn_this_city]

Why should any business have to provide an expose on it's cost model? Supply and demand dictate pricing in a capitalist society. The cost to produce a good can have almost no bearing on it's sale price if the market is willing to pay.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Corral

No this isn't transparency. Real transparency is generated when industry players are required to report pricing and factors which influence pricing to an independent monitoring agency in real time (or close thereto) who then transmits to the public - and audits industry on a regular basis. The best example of this model is of course the capital markets. Commodity pools are amongst the darkest areas of the capital markets - have been for decades. So no surprise the retail market is likewise or worse.

Linking me to a Shell page which embeds links to old data - NRCAN website is like 2 years old and one of the other sources is listed at 2007/2008 - not good enough.

Do you require this information for everything you buy? Why should a public company be required to disclose its detailed cost model to the public and competitors beyond what is required by IFRS accounting standards?

[ken0042]

I think the difference is that most other utilities that we purchase are much more protected by government.

Gasoline is more like electricity than bread in that regard.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Corral

No this isn't transparency. Real transparency is generated when industry players are required to report pricing and factors which influence pricing to an independent monitoring agency in real time (or close thereto) who then transmits to the public - and audits industry on a regular basis. The best example of this model is of course the capital markets. Commodity pools are amongst the darkest areas of the capital markets - have been for decades. So no surprise the retail market is likewise or worse.

Linking me to a Shell page which embeds links to old data - NRCAN website is like 2 years old and one of the other sources is listed at 2007/2008 - not good enough.

Is your salary on the internet?

Also, I would argue food is more important than gasoline - do we get the exact cost breakdown for your local grocer?

Gas stations aren't very complicated. They basically pay the rack rate for wholesale gasoline from a refinery, pay for transportation to their station, add a variety of taxes, and pay credit card fees. Then they have to cover overhead out of what's left, to pay for staff, property tax, electricity, etc.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I think the difference is that most other utilities that we purchase are much more protected by government.

Gasoline is more like electricity than bread in that regard.

I’ll give you that. So what people are getting at is the desire to regulate gasoline to a fixed, transparent and fair rate of return?

That would be very difficult or impossible to implement without Canada wide or North American / global buy in. Provincial regulation is feasible for electricity (let’s not forget though that electricity in this province is not regulated) because most of the production consumed by Albertans is made in Alberta. So the provincial government can get its arms around most of it.

That is not possible for gasoline due to the global nature and transportation ease of the product. Provincial governments have no jurisdiction over the global refining industry or outside the province. Also, the type of long term contracts which enable the implementation of regulated rates of return don’t really exist in the refined products market.

If they regulate the price of gasoline in the province to that below market, producers will just sell it elsewhere and we’ll have no gasoline to buy.

If they restrict exports and force Alberta refiners to sell at below market rates, the Suncor’s, Shell’s and Imperial’s will stop pouring sustaining capital into these money losing assets and run them into the ground. And no one will build new ones because there will be no business case. Then we’ll have no gasoline to buy.

So all that’s left is Venezuelan style provincialization of refining capacity in this province. If you want a provincial government to build, operate and maintain refining capacity then what you save on gasoline costs will more than be made up with by tax increases.

So choose one:
-current gasoline price dynamics
-no gasoline supply
-lower gasoline prices but much higher taxes

The solution to gasoline price dissatisfaction lies in only one place, and that’s in the mirror.

[Harry Lime]

At work, so little time to write, but I agree that there is not an existing regulatory body for gasoline rates that would fix this issue to anyone's satisfaction.

Outside of the industry there are basic frameworks that could be useful, and are implemented internationally for global product. These are mostly to ensure that the people needing these products for economic (or actual) survival are being served.

The pharmaceutical industry leaps to mind.

[Frequitude]

We obviously disagree on the degree to which gasoline is a need vs a luxury so let’s set that aside and say for a sec it’s a basic need.

When considering the well-being of the poor, why do you support regulating gasoline prices down for everyone including the rich. Wouldn’t an increase in low income support be far more efficient? Count me in for that.

When considering the middle class, it’s my opinion that they’re entitled and need to look in the mirror. There are plenty of ways for the middle class to fit gasoline into their basic necessities budget if they cut their luxury spending.