The Deal With Geoff Ward

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Treliving has tried to do something about the top line but he’s gone the wrong way with Neal and Brouwer, thinking they needed size and in close hands. But let’s face it, Johnny and Monahan are hard guys to play with. You need a speedy, gritty, defensive minded guy who also has good offensive chops. Lindholm was the answer for a while.

I’d like to see Ward break them up. It’s a really hard thing to do and I think you’d have to be ready for a slump while they figured out playing without each other.

They need size and hands, just not from the bargain bin. Although Neal was no bargain.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Red

They need size and hands, just not from the bargain bin. Although Neal was no bargain.

Neal signing is my biggest complaint about Treliving. On paper Neal looked like the answer but a little bit of due diligence (which even internet fans can do) would have raised questions.

And it was a misread on the direction of the NHL. Size and hands, sure, but nowadays you really have to be able to skate.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

What other big hockey trades have happened that included "core" players in the last three years?

Dubois for Laine...but those two were always going to be traded for one another after both requested trades.

Trocheck for Haula, Wallmark, Priskie, Luostarinen...do wish the Flames were able to make this one to get Trocheck.

Faulk for Edmunson + Bokk ... no real fit for the Flames here

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot ... Flames actually made this deal & Kadri refused to waive his NTC.

JT Miller for a 1st...Critized this trade for the Canucks when they made it but it's worked out good for them.

Trouba for 1st and Pionk .... Trouba only wanted to play in NYC

I'd argue the biggest "hockey" trade of the last three offseasons was actually made by this GM.

Hanifin & Linhdolm for Hamilton, Ferland, Fox

Trades don't happen in the NHL frequent enough. This isn't a Brad Treliving problem, it's an NHL problem. NHL GMs in general are too afraid to make trades.

Kadri refusing the trade was huge. Was a perfect type of player that this team needed.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

What other big hockey trades have happened that included "core" players in the last three years?

Dubois for Laine...but those two were always going to be traded for one another after both requested trades.

Trocheck for Haula, Wallmark, Priskie, Luostarinen...do wish the Flames were able to make this one to get Trocheck.

Faulk for Edmunson + Bokk ... no real fit for the Flames here

Kadri for Barrie and Kerfoot ... Flames actually made this deal & Kadri refused to waive his NTC.

JT Miller for a 1st...Critized this trade for the Canucks when they made it but it's worked out good for them.

Trouba for 1st and Pionk .... Trouba only wanted to play in NYC

I'd argue the biggest "hockey" trade of the last three offseasons was actually made by this GM.

Hanifin & Linhdolm for Hamilton, Ferland, Fox

Trades don't happen in the NHL frequent enough. This isn't a Brad Treliving problem, it's an NHL problem. NHL GMs in general are too afraid to make trades.

This year. Domi for Anderson

Last year. Can include subban and zucker.

Year before. O’Reilly, kessel, patches, Erik karlsson

Not saying we should have been in on every deal, but core pieces are moveable

We should (and hope we were) on the same deal that Carolina got for Faulk. We end up with zip for Brodie (yes, tried with kadri but getting edmunson and bokk beats nothing). Who knows maybe stl didn’t want Brodie.

Last year was a debacle. Opens up room with trading frolik then uses space to trade for two bottom pair d. Tofolli is right there and would have filled an organizational need. Passes that over for depth bottom pair d.

But I digress. Trades can be made (yes, this year is different with expansion and Covid) but we either have players people don’t want or overvalue our players relative to what other teams are willing to pay.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

We haven’t had a lot of turnovers at the opposition blueline to be honest.

If we get caught it’s usually because the dump was bad and we went to make a change and the other team has numbers.

It’s very rare for this team to try to gain the zone with possession, or defend our own blueline. We’ve been one of the worst teams at this going back to the start of last season, when the team starting playing a much safer style after getting burned for odd man rushes by Colorado.



Don’t enter the opposition zone with possession, and do a bad job preventing the opposition of entering our zone with possession...Calgary Flames hockey under Geoff Ward.

Coming back to this for a second after doing a little more digging.

Zone Entries:

18-19:
Total Controlled Entry: 54% (4th Best)

19-20:
Total Controlled Entry: 46% (7th worst)

That's a huge change in one year going from 4th best to 7th worst in the league in that time frame. In terms of our comparison that moves us from Rush-Based teams to a Forecheck based team.

IMO that's all system and coaching because the forward group is mostly the same.

Zone Entry Defense

19-20:
Controlled Zone Entry Against: 63% (2nd worst in the NHL - Don't have the team stat here for 18-19 but looking at the individual dmen and all of them were much better at preventing zone entries in 18-19 vs 19-20)

Same roster for the most part, same coaching staff but the team changed systems after the defeat to Colorado. It'ls like they had PTSD after being burned for so many odd man rushes that series.

The team started playing more "safe" hockey with more dump ins, taking less chances at the opposition blue line, and stepping up less to create fewer turn overs at our own blueline. Boring hockey that my guess is this group just hates playing.

Corey Sznajder has a tableau that shows a lot of this and it's crazy how much changed between the two seasons and to me it's about the systems.
https://public.tableau.com/profile/corey.sznajder#!/

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

This year. Domi for Anderson

Last year. Can include subban and zucker.

Year before. O’Reilly, kessel, patches, Erik karlsson

Not saying we should have been in on every deal, but core pieces are moveable

We should (and hope we were) on the same deal that Carolina got for Faulk. We end up with zip for Brodie (yes, tried with kadri but getting edmunson and bokk beats nothing). Who knows maybe stl didn’t want Brodie.

Last year was a debacle. Opens up room with trading frolik then uses space to trade for two bottom pair d. Tofolli is right there and would have filled an organizational need. Passes that over for depth bottom pair d.

But I digress. Trades can be made (yes, this year is different with expansion and Covid) but we either have players people don’t want or overvalue our players relative to what other teams are willing to pay.

Agree that not trading Brodie and Hamonic is the biggest mistake, letting them walk for nothing hurts a lot. But I don't really see what that has to do with potential Gaudreau or Monahan trades, they aren't really comparable.

I'm happy we didn't trade for Anderson, great start to the year but want no part of that contract or potentially needing to move Monahan to get him.
Subban is washed up and has been terrible in New Jersey, he was moved as a cap dump.
Zucker would have been a nice fit but sounds like there was an issue with a potential trade for him we were in on too.
Kessel...yuck and also moved as a pure cap dump to Arizona.
Patches...Overpayment by Vegas and I'd take Suzuki & Tatar every day of the week.
Erik Karlsson...That trade and subsequent contract is going to set back the San Jose Sharks decades. I hope the Flames can move Gaudreau or Monahan when they are 1 year from UFA to anything close to the return Ottawa got there.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Neal signing is my biggest complaint about Treliving. On paper Neal looked like the answer but a little bit of due diligence (which even internet fans can do) would have raised questions.

And it was a misread on the direction of the NHL. Size and hands, sure, but nowadays you really have to be able to skate.

I loved the Neal signing. But I didnt really watch the guy before, I just looked at his stats.
And yes, skating. Thus me harping on #23. And #19 for that matter. The Flames are going nowhere when these two are your top players.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Red

I loved the Neal signing. But I didnt really watch the guy before, I just looked at his stats.
And yes, skating. Thus me harping on #23. And #19 for that matter. The Flames are going nowhere when these two are your top players.

Would you have traded Chucky for PLD?

I think the Flames are badly missing Burke within their management ranks.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Would you have traded Chucky for PLD?

I think the Flames are badly missing Burke within their management ranks.

Tough call, but there probably would be a deal there. Would have to check with other teams first to gage interest and get a feel for MT's value.
I hold an unpopular opinion of Chucky. I think the Flames are better off using him in a big trade. For reason like his qualifying salary which is a massive overpay, concerns about his future in calgary/canada but mostly his game. I feel like he won't age well. The game is getting faster every day.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He could try those things all right. But of course, that ignores that Monahan and Gaudreau got off to a hot start, and so did Tkachuk and Lindholm, and ignores the success of Backlund’s current line mates. But you are wrong about what he wants Gaudreau to do, as evidenced by the fact Johnny constantly carries the puck into the zone (and then loses it).

The issue here is that everyone is so invested in these players, and therefore they have to invent a universe where, if only the coach would use some imaginary “system” which isn’t being coached now, they would suddenly have different results than the past 6 years.

Actually, the issue is we have a head coach, who is actually a PP specialist that fell ass backwards into a head coaching role. Boston and New Jersey didn't seem to broken up about Ward leaving their teams, that should tell you something.

There are tangible examples in this thread of terrible coaching decisions made by Ward, but you chose to ignore them and fall back on the fact 3 bargain bin coaches have flopped with this core.

You get what you pay for, and Ward is very cheap.

[ricosuave]

I can't believe that Ward wasn't given his walking papers after that last playoff debaucle against Dallas.

It's obvious to everyone except Tre and possibly the ownership group that Ward isnt very good

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Would you have traded Chucky for PLD?

Yes, without a doubt


The way Tkachuk is going, he is going to be Neal sooner than later.


Horrific this year so far.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

I can't believe that Ward wasn't given his walking papers after that last playoff debaucle against Dallas.

It's obvious to everyone except Tre and possibly the ownership group that Ward isnt very good

Lots going on, including that the teams are not making a jillion dollars this year, revenue is WAY down, so a cheap coach is a good, good thing. For example.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Lots going on, including that the teams are not making a jillion dollars this year, revenue is WAY down, so a cheap coach is a good, good thing. For example.

This.

There wasn't even certainty that there would be a season at all at the time the Flames (and other teams) were looking at coaches.

I also have my doubts about the "proven" coaches that were left standing for the Flames to pick from.

Boudreau has had some success, but has had health issues. Being a player's coach for this team would kill him probably.

Gallant, there has to be some reason why he gets canned in such unceremonious ways.

Laviolette was probably never going to choose Calgary, plus I don't think we want a coach that punches players in the head on the bench when he gets frustrated. If the country club hated Hartley, they weren't going to play for Laviolette either.

If you are paying $3 million+ for a coach, you need to be sure that it is indeed the missing piece. Until this team gets rid of the coach killing players, I don't think it matters who the coach is.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If you are paying $3 million+ for a coach, you need to be sure that it is indeed the missing piece. Until this team gets rid of the coach killing players, I don't think it matters who the coach is.

I have heard so much about coach killing players, for argument sake, exactly which good coach has this group killed? What the team have actually is an egg and chicken problem. Without a legitimate coach, doesn't really matter what star player the team have. The Penguins had Crosby, Malkin and Staal, the one, two, three punch and couldn't go anywhere in the playoff until they got rid of Johnston. So I really believe get the coach first, if that doesn't work, then get the players according to the coach.



/my 2 cents

[Mindtravellee]

Has there been enough time for Ward to be able to fully implement his system (eg shortened preseason etc) or is this still the rehash from Post Peters due to everything else. Is there a chance we'll see something different next season given proper time to implement his systems?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

I have heard so much about coach killing players, for argument sake, exactly which good coach has this group killed? What the team have actually is an egg and chicken problem. Without a legitimate coach, doesn't really matter what star player the team have. The Penguins had Crosby, Malkin and Staal, the one, two, three punch and couldn't go anywhere in the playoff until they got rid of Johnston. So I really believe get the coach first, if that doesn't work, then get the players according to the coach.



/my 2 cents

If you believe the rumours, a couple of core young players pressured Treliving to replace Hartley because he was too mean. Say what you want about him, but the results he got ranged from expected for a rebuilding team to above what was expected. He will probably be the last Jack Adams winning head coach the Flames have in a long time.

Treliving then brought in a player's coach for boys. If you believe Burke, the players used that opportunity to run amuck. Was he a good coaching hire for a head coach... probably not. But I don't think he had a chance. If the first rumour is true, the players had all the power at that point.

Treliving then brings in another disciplinarian coach in Peters. He actually got decent results for a while, but prior to his firing for unrelated matters, the team was already starting to tune him out it seemed. I recall many people thinking the excuse to fire him was a blessing in disguise.

Now with Ward, it looks like Gulutzan all over again. Is he a good coach... I don't know. I don't think many (if any) of us are really qualified to say.

Going back before the current core, the former core allegedly ran over Playfair in a way that some insiders indicated was inappropriate. They apparently disrespected him because he only played 21 NHL games or something like that. Sutter even said it was a very difficult group to coach. Keep in mind that members of the core from that period were the ones that prepared the current core for their duties.

The country club culture has permeated over several years.

[GioforPM]

I think Hartley was a terrible coach and his rep here is based off of one season. But I could be wrong and I’d like to hear what Iginla, Stajan, Jaybo, Russell - vets who played elsewhere - have to say.

[FlamesAddiction]

It's really too bad that Daryll Sutter is retired. He is the perfect coach in many aspects. He can be a disciplinarian and no one wants to be in his doghouse, but he respects his players and they seem to respect him. He always seemed to know when to drop the hammer and when to let off.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Hartley was a terrible coach and his rep here is based off of one season. But I could be wrong and I’d like to hear what Iginla, Stajan, Jaybo, Russell - vets who played elsewhere - have to say.

Maybe but he was a motivator and had that team believing they could come back and beat anyone. There is no "Find A Way Flames or Cardiac Kids/ Vets or that type of swagger any more. Under Ward they come out flat like they had a flat of beer the day before the game, show up for a period or maybe two if we are lucky, and skate around like their feet are in mud every second game. The last game it looked like a team that smokes a pack a day versus Olympic Athletes with how slow they were on pucks and getting up the ice. They get bailed out by Markstrom and win games they have no business winning and are less than the sum of their parts when in the past they played way way above their heads and looked like the best conditioned team on the ice. There's things beyond X and Os I really really liked about Sutter and Hartley coached teams that Ward could learn.

[jg13]

IMO our roster is superior on paper to Montreals by a fair margin yet they're further ahead in the standings.

This IMO is largely due to coaching. Julien has won a cup and is getting the most out of the roster provided infront of him so yes, IMO coaching plays a factor and I do believe we would do wonders better with a guy in charge of the bench that has been there, done that.

How management hasn't figured that out yet is mindboggling to me.