05-15-2019, 10:40 PM
|
#201
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
So your argument for Bennett being worth $4 million plus is what exactly?
|
You cannot talk about AAV independant of term, especially if a player is going to be in his 20s for virtually the entirety of said term.
4.0M for three years is not a good contract. In fact it is a bad one.
4.0M for eight years is a good contract. In fact it has the potential to be even better than just good.
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
|
|
|
05-15-2019, 10:43 PM
|
#202
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Alberta
|
4 mil a season for Bennett lol.
I do agree we should give him better linemates though. I think we should try to get another o line going, tkachuk-centre-bennett, then have backlund lead a very strong third line.
|
|
|
05-15-2019, 10:45 PM
|
#203
|
First round-bust
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: speculating about AHL players
|
I thought $3.6 million for Bennett was pushing it a little, and I like Bennett. $4 million is right out, as it stands.
__________________
"This has been TheScorpion's shtick for years. All these hot takes, clickbait nonsense just to feed his social media algorithms." –Tuco
|
|
|
05-15-2019, 10:52 PM
|
#204
|
Lifetime Suspension
|
Start off by saying I enjoy GranteedEV's posts, he doesn't adhere to traditional thinking and can be described as an outside the box thinker when it comes to the game. Hell at times - - like right now - - he spits on the box and throws it in the trash!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
If I were GM, I assure you we would not be on the hook for Mike Stone, James Neal, or Troy Brouwer's buyout.
|
This is fair and I believe this... but let's try to be honest about it, there would be contracts and moves you'd make that would be regrettable. Maybe Troy Brouwer or James Neal don't get deals but maybe Michael Ferland or TJ Brodie get long term deals that you wish you could take back.
There is certainly a player you've liked in your past, signed by any of the other 30 NHL teams you loved at the time but has turned sour I'm sure
|
|
|
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rando For This Useful Post:
|
|
05-15-2019, 10:56 PM
|
#205
|
Crash and Bang Winger
|
Pay Bennett third line money because that's how he's being used. Anything more makes him another expensive bottom 6 contract.
It seems simple to me. Can't pay him more just because some feel like he could be more than that.
Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
|
|
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MikePatton For This Useful Post:
|
|
05-15-2019, 11:05 PM
|
#206
|
First round-bust
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: speculating about AHL players
|
No GM is perfect. Everyone would make mistakes in that role. Plus, hindsight is huge. Most people were in favour of the Neal and Stone signings when they happened.
I can say right now that I wouldn't have signed Brouwer, but maybe I'd have signed Loui Eriksson instead. Or David Backes. Maybe I'd still be giving David Jones one-year deals. (OK probably not). Point is, teams have to spend money. We can erase bad contracts in theoretical worlds but if we're second-guessing every decision, maybe the Flames ship Hamilton off to St. Louis instead of Carolina and we're debating how to get rid of Robby Fabbri.
Anyway, with Bennett, I can see three big outcomes. Either he breaks out and becomes a semi-star, potting around 60 points a year; he improves only slightly into a 40-point player or something similar; or he stagnates entirely. For all three of these situations, the player still provides value to the team. So I say, lock Bennett in for as many years as possible. Give him 4 or even 5 if possible. See if he takes around $3 million. Even if he doesn't progress, that contract isn't gonna be deleterious, and if he improves even slightly, then it becomes a bargain.
__________________
"This has been TheScorpion's shtick for years. All these hot takes, clickbait nonsense just to feed his social media algorithms." –Tuco
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 01:46 AM
|
#207
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Calgary
|
Right now Bennett has no real hand. His arbitration case isn't great. It makes the most sense for all parties to do one year deals until his RFA years expire and they have to make a decision on him... or he breaks out and they feel they need to lock him down long-term.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 07:10 AM
|
#208
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache
^ I never said I think Bennett is getting 4 million
You said the series proved he wasn’t a difference maker. A difference maker doesn’t mean play miraculously overcoming and reversing a garbage series from Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamonic, Hanifin, etc and reversing a 30 shot per game differential. It’s often something like a consistent effort and a timely goal here and there in an otherwise competitive game.
Don’t overestimate the reach of my remark
|
It’s not just the Colorado series that proves out who Bennett is.
This is not a dissection of the Colorado series but a discussion of Bennett’s worth. His play in the Colorado series was solid but also not worthy of an 8 year contract, nor a $4 million plus AAV. Those kinds of contracts go to special players.
There are things to like about Sam’s game but you don’t commit that kind of money and term to a player like that. Especially something with little to no leverage.
You have replied to me about 10 times and I still have no idea what point you’re trying to make. You’ve brought up Iginla, Kipper, Globetrotters...
Every player in the league can make a difference in a close game. Steve Montador, God rest his soul, scored a huge goal for the Flames and made a difference in a playoff game.
Should Bennett have single handedly turned the Colorado series around? I haven’t said that once. Don’t know why you are trying to argue that point.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 07:15 AM
|
#209
|
Franchise Player
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monahammer
4 mil a season for Bennett lol.
I do agree we should give him better linemates though. I think we should try to get another o line going, tkachuk-centre-bennett, then have backlund lead a very strong third line.
|
At $4 m+ million and an 8 year term, I’d like Bennett to be a guy making his linemates better.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 07:45 AM
|
#210
|
Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
|
I think his production says he's a $2.75M player.
I think if you take that three years plus he probably comes in around $3M
So if someone wanted to lock him up for 8 years he may be pretty close in that $4M range if the players agent assumes growth and digs in.
So the number looks crazy, but he's probably not that far off if the Flames were determined to get the player on max term.
That's not to say I'd be in favour of doing it though.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 08:25 AM
|
#211
|
Franchise Player
|
The problems with going long term are numerous:
You are banking on the player improving. Yeah there is upside if the player improves more than planned, or the cap grows more than anticipated. But if he stagnates you are stuck with an anchor contract with a ridiculous term.
You are overpaying for the next few years compared to a short term deal, on a team with little salary cap space in the next few years.
What this team needs is another elite forward. Why take a gamble on a player who most certainly won’t be that, while limiting your ability to add salary for a top player?
An 8 year contract removes a large incentive for the player to want to achieve his peak potential.
It’s a discussion about something that almost certainly wont happen. Still think he signs for 2 years under $5 million total.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Strange Brew For This Useful Post:
|
|
05-16-2019, 09:01 AM
|
#212
|
Backup Goalie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mourning the Hoito
Exp:
|
Just wondering, and perhaps it's been discussed elsewhere (apologies if so), but did Sam have the opportunity to play for Team Canada? Could've been a great chance for some exposure and for him to continue his great playoff play - showing what he can do? Thanks.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 09:53 AM
|
#213
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
You cannot talk about AAV independant of term, especially if a player is going to be in his 20s for virtually the entirety of said term.
4.0M for three years is not a good contract. In fact it is a bad one.
4.0M for eight years is a good contract. In fact it has the potential to be even better than just good.
|
Is it a good contract if he never improves, or regresses?
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 09:54 AM
|
#214
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Springbank
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by FudsMcDuff
Just wondering, and perhaps it's been discussed elsewhere (apologies if so), but did Sam have the opportunity to play for Team Canada? Could've been a great chance for some exposure and for him to continue his great playoff play - showing what he can do? Thanks.
|
I never heard he was asked and I'd be pretty surprised if he was.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 11:02 AM
|
#215
|
Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
The problems with going long term are numerous:
You are banking on the player improving. Yeah there is upside if the player improves more than planned, or the cap grows more than anticipated. But if he stagnates you are stuck with an anchor contract with a ridiculous term.
You are overpaying for the next few years compared to a short term deal, on a team with little salary cap space in the next few years.
What this team needs is another elite forward. Why take a gamble on a player who most certainly won’t be that, while limiting your ability to add salary for a top player?
An 8 year contract removes a large incentive for the player to want to achieve his peak potential.
It’s a discussion about something that almost certainly wont happen. Still think he signs for 2 years under $5 million total.
|
Yeah I wouldn't do it.
Just pointing out the guy with the contract value isn't as crazy as some are making him out.
If you think he's going to improve (his agent), or in this case Treliving as well, and you want to lock him up 8 years, it might take $4M to get it done.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Bingo For This Useful Post:
|
|
05-16-2019, 12:42 PM
|
#216
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
|
Bennett is probably the best 4th liner in the league.
I don't know what you pay for that but I don't go above 2.5 on a 2 year deal and I press as hard as I can to not go north of 2 per.
If he values term I would be comfortable with 2x3 or 2.1x4.
The problem with calling Bennett an above average third liner is above average third liners play heavy special teams minutes OR their offense is significantly better and Bennett hasn't shown an ability to do that with much efficacy.
It is pretty rose coloured to suggest the only thing that matters in a frolik comparison is there relative even strength production per minute when the significant factor is their relative impact on the players they play with.
When that comparison is illustrated in numbers it is clear Bennett has an adverse effect on the roster the further up he plays compared to Frolik. He might still get his points, bit his linemates don't.
Hathaway - Janko - Bennett is a fourth line on a contender because they are all fourth liners. Bennett is definitely the best of the bunch, but that's where he is slotted for the team to find the most success.
I don't think there is any shame in being called a top 4th line player. Reeves just got paid handsomely as the reigning 4th line heavyweight champ.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 01:24 PM
|
#217
|
Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken
Bennett is probably the best 4th liner in the league.
I don't know what you pay for that but I don't go above 2.5 on a 2 year deal and I press as hard as I can to not go north of 2 per.
If he values term I would be comfortable with 2x3 or 2.1x4.
The problem with calling Bennett an above average third liner is above average third liners play heavy special teams minutes OR their offense is significantly better and Bennett hasn't shown an ability to do that with much efficacy.
It is pretty rose coloured to suggest the only thing that matters in a frolik comparison is there relative even strength production per minute when the significant factor is their relative impact on the players they play with.
When that comparison is illustrated in numbers it is clear Bennett has an adverse effect on the roster the further up he plays compared to Frolik. He might still get his points, bit his linemates don't.
Hathaway - Janko - Bennett is a fourth line on a contender because they are all fourth liners. Bennett is definitely the best of the bunch, but that's where he is slotted for the team to find the most success.
I don't think there is any shame in being called a top 4th line player. Reeves just got paid handsomely as the reigning 4th line heavyweight champ.
|
Well his actual production across the league suggests he's a third liner, and probably an above average one.
And there's no shame in being called an average to above average third liner either.
Your idea that above average third liners play special teams doesn't really work unless you're just talking PK time, as they'd likely have more points if they played more powerplay time than Bennett and would therefore be higher up the list when it comes to point averages.
Don't think many were arguing that Frolik is better defensively.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 03:07 PM
|
#218
|
Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: The Void between Darkness and Light
|
It's been pointed out by me previously and others in this thread that there is a big gap between comparing Bennett to a league average that includes the worst teams in the league and comparing him to contending teams.
It also conveniently leaves out that the context of his production benefitted from spending 30+ percent of his icetime this season with Backlund and tkachuk, who also coincidentally happened to produce less tangible offense when paired with Bennett.
Outside of those second line minutes he was producing tangible offense at a 4th line rate.
For something like the first 25 games of the season he was on an 18 point pace.
I just don't care how he compares to the oilers third line forwards.
How does he compare to the sharks, bolts, bruins, knights, Jets, caps, preds, avs, etc. third lines?
How does he compare in points per 60 against the teams that remain in the playoffs right now?
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
|
|
05-16-2019, 03:34 PM
|
#219
|
Franchise Player
|
One thing I’m fairly certain of is that those good teams don’t pay their 5th or 6th best winger $4 million per. Or $3M for that matter. A quick tour through capfriendly for some of the better teams confirmed that.
|
|
|
05-16-2019, 03:48 PM
|
#220
|
Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CGY
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
One thing I’m fairly certain of is that those good teams don’t pay their 5th or 6th best winger $4 million per. Or $3M for that matter. A quick tour through capfriendly for some of the better teams confirmed that.
|
Is Bennett our 5th or 6th best winger?
Right now in my opinion only Gaudreau, Tkachuk, and Lindholm (who is rumored to be moving to center) are clearly better.
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:59 AM.
|
|