2022/2023 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

We have enough of history that the Flames approach to doing things in the last 30+ years is wrong if their goal is to win a Stanley Cup.

Signing Hiller, Raymond, and Engelland hurt this team. Without those players, perhaps we would have traded away more than just Glencross the following season and while we may have missed the playoffs, we would have been better off in the long run with how the team has drafted since Tree got here. Impatience.

There’s no way to tell whether we would have been better off or not. Frankly, that’s a fool’s errand.

If you’re looking to say someone was impatient, I strongly suggest that it would have been ownership and/or Brian Burke. Burke famously said in his first press conference as Leaf’s GM that he didn’t have patience for a rebuild. Doubt very much his philosophy on that changed by the time he got to the Flames.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I throw 2013 out because it was Feaster/Weisbrod, but in 2013 had we drafted 1st or 2nd the world would be different.

Draisaitl over Bennett wouldn’t have had a big impact?

We still would have drafted Tkachuk, we were looking to trade up to make sure we got him. The fact we got Tkachuk where we did was a brilliant result.

The Flames have drafted very well under Treliving, Treliving just hasn’t had the opportunity to draft where he’s needed to draft in order to build a Stanley Cup team.

Funny enough many (including myself) wanted Bennett over Draisaitl. I remember when Edmonton picked him all the people I watched that draft with cheered.

My point at the end of the day was the Flames have the equivalent of 3 top 3 picks in the form of their top line. Gaudreau would be 2-3 in a redraft, Lu dholm has solidified himself as third best after MacKinnon and Barkov, and Chucky is second. Even without a 1st in 2015 they acquired 2 top 4 D and a top 6 forward with their picks (agreed and Treliving’s draft).

Tampa is where they are because of good drafting and developing. Sure Hedmen and Stamkos are great but Point, Kucherov, Vasilesky are equally as important.

If the Flames can’t keep Chucky and Johnny they have little choice but to tear it down so I really hope it doesn’t come to that because I do think this team has potential to win it all

[Macho0978]

Rebuilding isn’t just about the top 3 overall picks you get. Timing and managing your cap and sell short term assets for additional picks

What would we get if we traded off guys like

Tanev
Toffoli
Backlund
Hanifin
Markstrom

This list doesn’t include Tkachuk or Lindholm and I bet we could land a ton of 1st and 2nd round picks for these guys. If you draft well you can turn the corner fast and have tons of cap space when you are on the rise

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Rebuilding isn’t just about the top 3 overall picks you get. Timing and managing your cap and sell short term assets for additional picks

What would we get if we traded off guys like

Tanev
Toffoli
Backlund
Hanifin
Markstrom

This list doesn’t include Tkachuk or Lindholm and I bet we could land a ton of 1st and 2nd round picks for these guys. If you draft well you can turn the corner fast and have tons of cap space when you are on the rise

Late firsts at best. Not blue chip firsts. No top 10 drafting team would take them. Because they aren’t in their near term plans.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Funny enough many (including myself) wanted Bennett over Draisaitl. I remember when Edmonton picked him all the people I watched that draft with cheered.

My point at the end of the day was the Flames have the equivalent of 3 top 3 picks in the form of their top line. Gaudreau would be 2-3 in a redraft, Lu dholm has solidified himself as third best after MacKinnon and Barkov, and Chucky is second. Even without a 1st in 2015 they acquired 2 top 4 D and a top 6 forward with their picks (agreed and Treliving’s draft).

Tampa is where they are because of good drafting and developing. Sure Hedmen and Stamkos are great but Point, Kucherov, Vasilesky are equally as important.

If the Flames can’t keep Chucky and Johnny they have little choice but to tear it down so I really hope it doesn’t come to that because I do think this team has potential to win it all

There was a good article on the Athletic a while back on that pick from the Oilers perspective and what that pick meant to them. One of the things I recall reading is that one of the Oilers scouts said that after they announced Draisaitl, he looked over at the Flames table and the Flames were high fiving each other.

I guess we ‘got them back’ a couple years later.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Late firsts at best. Not blue chip firsts. No top 10 drafting team would take them. Because they aren’t in their near term plans.

“At best”…lol

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Late firsts at best. Not blue chip firsts. No top 10 drafting team would take them. Because they aren’t in their near term plans.

You’re getting top firsts with our own pick. Adding late firsts and 2nds while rebuilding is just added opportunities to speed up the rebuild

If we lose Johnny and don’t get a top notch ufa what value do guys like backlund and tanev have other than leadership? They probably will want to chase a cup too

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Late firsts at best. Not blue chip firsts. No top 10 drafting team would take them. Because they aren’t in their near term plans.

Those are all players you hang on to until the deadline this year if we are to move them at all. At the deadline I could see a bunch of teams tacking on a blue chip prospect along with a mid to late first depending on how the acquiring team does in the playoffs. It’ll be really interesting to see how this team pivots if they do lose Gaudreau, I cringe at the thought of signing a big ticket UFA like Kadri to ‘replace’ the void left by Johnny, I think it would be a better approach to not panic replace and go with internal promotions and a see what happens approach through the season but I don’t think we’d see that kind of measured approach. Terrible timing for all this to be happening to so many key players of last years team in the same year, don’t think I can remember a time like this before.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Late firsts at best. Not blue chip firsts. No top 10 drafting team would take them. Because they aren’t in their near term plans.

The Flames also have drafted very well the last 10 years outside the first round.

The Oilers consistently draft poorly outside the first round

If the Flames can get some high picks and keep drafting like they have in the 2nd round on they can rebuild much more successfully than teams like Edmonton have. Extra opportunities with extra picks combined with next draft being stacked is a perfect scenario

Someone explain the plan when you lose a 115 point player for nothing in a market that doesn’t typically attract top UFAs and is short picks and blue chip prospects is winning next year anyways?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Yoho

“At best”…lol

Yeah, at best. Who do you see wanting those guys?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

The Flames also have drafted very well the last 10 years outside the first round.

The Oilers consistently draft poorly outside the first round

If the Flames can get some high picks and keep drafting like they have in the 2nd round on they can rebuild much more successfully than teams like Edmonton have. Extra opportunities with extra picks combined with next draft being stacked is a perfect scenario

Someone explain the plan when you lose a 115 point player for nothing in a market that doesn’t typically attract top UFAs and is short picks and blue chip prospects is winning next year anyways?

The burn it down strategy doesn’t work very well. Teams that have done well lately fell into their high picks through just being bad, not by trading in order to be bad. Teams that intentionally divest all talent have no one to bring the high picks along. See Buffalo.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The burn it down strategy doesn’t work very well. Teams that have done well lately fell into their high picks through just being bad, not by trading in order to be bad. Teams that intentionally divest all talent have no one to bring the high picks along. See Buffalo.

The New York Rangers and LA Kings absolutely tore it down by trading away players for futures. New Jersey also sold off players for a few years. Sure, these teams spent a couple of years trying to make it work, but couldn’t so they tore it down while they were still rolling around in mediocrity. They had a plan. As did Toronto.

Using Edmonton and Buffalo as examples that the approach doesn’t work only proves that poorly run, unstable teams can’t make it work.

If the Flames do rebuild, I absolutely want Treliving to be the GM doing it. I think if he was given the opportunity to draft in the top-3 a few times and then build on top of those picks that he’d be able to build a Stanley Cup team.

[GioforPM]

Wait - when do you say the Kings tore it down? After their cups? Because they never traded anyone of note before them. Unless you count 08 when they sent Cammi here (and ended up drafting Colton Teubert).

The Rangers traded Hayes for a first but nothing has come of that yet. Same with trading Zuccarello. Same with McDonough and Miller. So I’m not seeing the burn down by NYR either. Maybe I’m missing the time you are talking about.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Wait - when do you say the Kings tore it down? After their cups? Because they never traded anyone of note before them. Unless you count 08 when they sent Cammi here (and ended up drafting Colton Teubert).

The Rangers traded Hayes for a first but nothing has come of that yet. Same with trading Zuccarello. Same with McDonough and Miller. So I’m not seeing the burn down by NYR either. Maybe I’m missing the time you are talking about.

In the last few years:

LA: Jeff Carter, Derek Forbort, Alec Martinez, Tyler Toffoli, Jack Campbell, Oscar Fantenberg, Carl Hagelin, Jake Muzzin

NYR: Brady Skjei, Jimmy Vesey, Adam McQuaid, Kevin Hayes, Mats Zuccarello, Ryan McDonagh, J.T Miller, Rick Nash, Michael Grabner

That’s ripping it down.

It takes years for things to come together. Ripping it down doesn’t mean you all of a sudden compete for a Cup, but you’re hoping you build the foundation for a Cup run. It’s a plan.

[SuperMatt18]

Both those teams were bad before the tear down though, not like they tore it down after winning the division.

Kings had already spent multiple years out of the playoffs, Rangers were on the down swing, Montreal is picking first this year and that wasn’t a planned tear down either, they ended up just being bad.

The comparisons for their tear downs would be the Flames when they did tear it down in 12-13. But at that point they were bad for a couple years already too.

There isn’t really precident for a team doing a tear down after making the playoffs 3 of 4 years and winning the division in two of those seasons. Of course if Gaudreau walks and Tkachuk refuses to re-sign then you have to think about it but there really isn’t precedent for it.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Both those teams were bad before the tear down though, not like they tore it down after winning the division.

Kings had already spent multiple years out of the playoffs, Rangers were on the down swing, Montreal is picking first this year and that wasn’t a planned tear down either, they ended up just being bad.

The comparisons for their tear downs would be the Flames when they did tear it down in 12-13. But at that point they were bad for a couple years already too.

There isn’t really precident for a team doing a tear down after making the playoffs 3 of 4 years and winning the division in two of those seasons. Of course if Gaudreau walks and Tkachuk refuses to re-sign then you have to think about it but there really isn’t precedent for it.

But the tear down plan is based on losing Johnny. That hurts and I bet Tkachuk will sign short term or ask for a trade if we lose Johnny

Sure some speculate we go after Kadri if we lose Johnny but why would he pick coming here if Johnny left and Tkachuk is not committed long term? There are other options for him

When Tanev got hurt how much did we miss him but now time to trade him and he worthless. Backlund might have been our best forward against the Oilers but we can’t get anything for him?

Trade deadline or taking back short term bad contracts we can get something good for these guys. We could be loaded in a year and have millions in cap space

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Both those teams were bad before the tear down though, not like they tore it down after winning the division.

Kings had already spent multiple years out of the playoffs, Rangers were on the down swing, Montreal is picking first this year and that wasn’t a planned tear down either, they ended up just being bad.

The comparisons for their tear downs would be the Flames when they did tear it down in 12-13. But at that point they were bad for a couple years already too.

There isn’t really precident for a team doing a tear down after making the playoffs 3 of 4 years and winning the division in two of those seasons. Of course if Gaudreau walks and Tkachuk refuses to re-sign then you have to think about it but there really isn’t precedent for it.

Yep, they spent years wandering around in irrelevancy not doing anything productive for their team on or off the ice - that’s the one thing I don’t want the Flames to do. Without Johnny, I’m afraid the Flames will do just that…and it kills me inside, because I don’t believe in this team without their best player.

Coming into this off-season I felt the Flames needed to keep their top players, and still find a way to improve the roster…and Johnny is the first move they need to nail. They need to sign him. Without him I think the only way I keep myself as invested as I am is if they pull a Rangers and announce a rebuild.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

In the last few years:

LA: Jeff Carter, Derek Forbort, Alec Martinez, Tyler Toffoli, Jack Campbell, Oscar Fantenberg, Carl Hagelin, Jake Muzzin

NYR: Brady Skjei, Jimmy Vesey, Adam McQuaid, Kevin Hayes, Mats Zuccarello, Ryan McDonagh, J.T Miller, Rick Nash, Michael Grabner

That’s ripping it down.

It takes years for things to come together. Ripping it down doesn’t mean you all of a sudden compete for a Cup, but you’re hoping you build the foundation for a Cup run. It’s a plan.

Well, we’ll see I guess. I had thought you were referring to successful rebuilds based on a burn down. Those examples haven’t really been determined yet. Most of those picks from those trades haven’t even really made the NHL by and large. And some were pretty minimal (eg Vesey).

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

In the last few years:

LA: Jeff Carter, Derek Forbort, Alec Martinez, Tyler Toffoli, Jack Campbell, Oscar Fantenberg, Carl Hagelin, Jake Muzzin

NYR: Brady Skjei, Jimmy Vesey, Adam McQuaid, Kevin Hayes, Mats Zuccarello, Ryan McDonagh, J.T Miller, Rick Nash, Michael Grabner

That’s ripping it down.

It takes years for things to come together. Ripping it down doesn’t mean you all of a sudden compete for a Cup, but you’re hoping you build the foundation for a Cup run. It’s a plan.

That’s not ripping it down. None of those guys were core vital players for those teams. Nash was at the end of his career and Carter was also 35+ when dealt. They traded some 2nd line guys they didn’t want to give long term deals to in years they missed the playoffs. LA tearing it down would have meant trading Kopitar and/or Doughty. The Rangers identified Zibenijad and Krieder as guys they wanted to keep.

Rangers benefited from winning the lottery 2 years in a row and also had Panarin and Fox make their way over there. LA had a nice season but none of their picks look to be absolute studs yet.

The Flames have been battling for a playoff spot or in the playoffs since Tkachuk’s rookie year so they didn’t make trades for picks but the only players that were still on the team from the 16/17 sweep of the Ducks are Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Backlund and Stone. This team has been changed a bunch in the last 5 years since this team started going for it

Mangiapane, Dube, Anderson, Kylington all rose up through the prospect ranks
Lindholm, Hanifin, Toffoli, Lucic, Zadorov, Jarnkrok, Vladar we’re all acquired in trade
Markstrom, Coleman, Tanev, Gudbransen, Lewis, Ritchie we’re free agent signings.

Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Backlund are the only core players here for the last 5 years and the team has been built around them with some key members taking over roles in that core but we must keep the 2 most crucial pieces in Gaudreau and Tkachuk

[blender]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
These guys are playing to win. Sutter. Treliving. Tanking and assett management are not the primary thing. Flames have a good core. In my mind they are all in, and I'll be surprised if they don't keep after it, and as a fan still happy about their best season in years, I for one am stoked.
I hope they sign Johnny, and with at least another year if Tkachuk they take care of Sutter's unfinished business.