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Old 03-12-2021, 02:58 AM   #361
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Quicksilver being a Dick joke was awesome. It was a perfect meta troll by Marvel. They knew exactly what people would expect and said #### you.
...
People’s expectation of this series seem to be reintroduce the X-men, establish the multiverse, bring in the fantastic four, explain Mephisto’s role as the Devil in Marvel while also telling the Wanda story. That’s too much for the show to do so I’m glad it didn’t.
I think those expectations were because of the show itself. I think most people were at best hoping for a not-needed-to-enjoy tie-in with Doctor Strange 2 after Disney announced Wanda would be in it (Like seeing Jarvis in Endgame if you watched Agent Carter). But then WandaVision goes and starts hammering us over the head with fake-Quicksilver and aerospace engineer for the only reason to build hype that they knew was going no where.

Like did they stop watching the Fyre Festival documentaries half way through and think, hey this is a great, let's just build massive hype and expectations that we know we aren't delivering on and I'm sure it will work out fine.

I also strongly agree about the Quicksilver thing in that it was a "#### you" but I don't know why you go out of your way to tell your audience that. Yes, people expected it to be more than a random guy but that's entirely because they went out to get Evan Peters to reprise his role. This wasn't "What's with the stork...well stork sounds a lot like Stark, this must be Tony's plan to be revived!" weird ass theory we saw, this was the studio telling us that Quicksilver from the X-Men universe is here somehow....and then he wasn't, Ralph just happened to look remarkably like him. We could also had the finale end with Luis waking up mid climax and telling Ant-Man about his crazy dream about Wanda if we really wanted to #### with audience and subvert expectations but it wouldn't be a good ending. Although probably a better one.

Take out Quicksilver (or replace him with a random actor/Taylor-Johnson) and I think the show would be much better for it.
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Old 03-12-2021, 10:18 AM   #362
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It's entirely possible that Taylor-Johnson said no. He couldn't have been happy that he is cast as a long time important member of the universe, and they treat him like a glorified red shirt.

Also, subverting expectations is Rian Johnson crap. It's a quick way to alienate a fan base at the moment.
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Old 03-12-2021, 10:26 AM   #363
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Just a reminder that assembled dropped last night and episode 1 is the making of WandaVision.
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Old 03-12-2021, 12:40 PM   #364
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You know what I really enjoyed the Quicksilver bit, sure it sucks that mutants aren't yet in the MCU, but the speculation was a lot of fun. This was also away to get some data on how much viewers want some mutant mayhem and build hype.
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Old 03-12-2021, 12:47 PM   #365
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It's a major problem with all live action material. Drastically varying scales of power work better in comics and cartoons. It was always a bit silly to see guys like hawkeye battling the same villains as guys like Hulk.
That's always going to be an issue with any superhero movie. Like even here. If I was up against a being who can shape reality, the last thing I'd be doing is chasing them with guns thinking I can intimidate them. Yet, without fail, human fodder in all these situations continue to think somehow shooting at them will be effective.
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Old 03-12-2021, 01:46 PM   #366
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I think those expectations were because of the show itself. I think most people were at best hoping for a not-needed-to-enjoy tie-in with Doctor Strange 2 after Disney announced Wanda would be in it (Like seeing Jarvis in Endgame if you watched Agent Carter). But then WandaVision goes and starts hammering us over the head with fake-Quicksilver and aerospace engineer for the only reason to build hype that they knew was going no where.

Like did they stop watching the Fyre Festival documentaries half way through and think, hey this is a great, let's just build massive hype and expectations that we know we aren't delivering on and I'm sure it will work out fine.

I also strongly agree about the Quicksilver thing in that it was a "#### you" but I don't know why you go out of your way to tell your audience that. Yes, people expected it to be more than a random guy but that's entirely because they went out to get Evan Peters to reprise his role. This wasn't "What's with the stork...well stork sounds a lot like Stark, this must be Tony's plan to be revived!" weird ass theory we saw, this was the studio telling us that Quicksilver from the X-Men universe is here somehow....and then he wasn't, Ralph just happened to look remarkably like him. We could also had the finale end with Luis waking up mid climax and telling Ant-Man about his crazy dream about Wanda if we really wanted to #### with audience and subvert expectations but it wouldn't be a good ending. Although probably a better one.

Take out Quicksilver (or replace him with a random actor/Taylor-Johnson) and I think the show would be much better for it.
Quicksilver could still turn out to be quicksilver

The person in “witness protection” could be a mutant who crossed over in the multiverse which is why they sent the superhero involved FBI agent and a sword rep to track him down. All of the bread crumbs are still there and could be used in the future. Fantastic Four could still be the result of the accident in space that made the astronauts lose their nerve. This type of bread crumbing for future writers to use is a staple in connected universes as the ret conning makes it feel planned. Like in Harry Potter when Riddles diary is a horcrux or in Star Wars Luke and Leila being siblings. Things don’t need to pay off now. For now it can be a dick joke.

Even if the above doesn’t happen the Quicksilver cameo stills does work for the greater MCU. It introduces people to the idea of the multiverse and gets people talking about how a multiverse works in advance of the Strange and Spidermam movies. This conditions the audience to be ready that these things are possible and makes the next movies easier to understand. So it wasn’t done just as an FU.
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Old 03-12-2021, 02:17 PM   #367
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Quicksilver could still turn out to be quicksilver

The person in “witness protection” could be a mutant who crossed over in the multiverse which is why they sent the superhero involved FBI agent and a sword rep to track him down. All of the bread crumbs are still there and could be used in the future. Fantastic Four could still be the result of the accident in space that made the astronauts lose their nerve. This type of bread crumbing for future writers to use is a staple in connected universes as the ret conning makes it feel planned. Like in Harry Potter when Riddles diary is a horcrux or in Star Wars Luke and Leila being siblings. Things don’t need to pay off now. For now it can be a dick joke.

Even if the above doesn’t happen the Quicksilver cameo stills does work for the greater MCU. It introduces people to the idea of the multiverse and gets people talking about how a multiverse works in advance of the Strange and Spidermam movies. This conditions the audience to be ready that these things are possible and makes the next movies easier to understand. So it wasn’t done just as an FU.
Yeah I don't see it as an FU either. It was trolling somewhat, but all in good fun.

Plus they actually IMO needed that character in the series so Wanda could have someone to have those specific conversations. Sure they could have gone with any actor to avoid the misdirect, but that would have been way more boring. This was a pretty meta series, os having some meta nonsense fit the tone very well. IMO.

Plus obviously this stunt got a lot of attention which is what Disney wants, because they want this streaming stuff to be just as must-watch as the movies.

And of course I think they probably wanted to test the waters a bit and see how people react.

Personally, having recently re-watched the Fox films, I say it's mostly a pile of hot garbage in retrospect, and Marvel should just scrap it all and re-do all of those characters from scratch. Except for Deadpool and Negasonic Teenage Warhead obviously.

EDIT: Domino was a ton of fun too. They really should just let Ryan Reynolds do his thing, with better special effects and the occasional actual-MCU cameo.

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Old 03-12-2021, 02:33 PM   #368
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That's always going to be an issue with any superhero movie. Like even here. If I was up against a being who can shape reality, the last thing I'd be doing is chasing them with guns thinking I can intimidate them. Yet, without fail, human fodder in all these situations continue to think somehow shooting at them will be effective.
You either have to suspend disbelief a little and go by action movie rules or go full on Christopher Nolan Batman, where everything is "reality based" and gritty.

That was kind of the whole point of the Watchmen. How ridiculous it would be to have an actual superpowered being among regular people. Eventually, they just say F-it and go do more interesting things in the universe than refereeing human squabbling.
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Old 03-12-2021, 02:42 PM   #369
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Yeah I don't see it as an FU either. It was trolling somewhat, but all in good fun.

Plus they actually IMO needed that character in the series so Wanda could have someone to have those specific conversations. Sure they could have gone with any actor to avoid the misdirect, but that would have been way more boring. This was a pretty meta series, os having some meta nonsense fit the tone very well. IMO.

Plus obviously this stunt got a lot of attention which is what Disney wants, because they want this streaming stuff to be just as must-watch as the movies.

And of course I think they probably wanted to test the waters a bit and see how people react.

Personally, having recently re-watched the Fox films, I say it's mostly a pile of hot garbage in retrospect, and Marvel should just scrap it all and re-do all of those characters from scratch. Except for Deadpool and Negasonic Teenage Warhead obviously.

EDIT: Domino was a ton of fun too. They really should just let Ryan Reynolds do his thing, with better special effects and the occasional actual-MCU cameo.
It's pretty easy to trash on the Fox X-men universe, because it was all over the map in quality and for its association with Bryan Singer, but it had some really great components and movies.

Logan, DoFP, First Class, and X2, were all top notch IMO. I'll even go as far to say that Fastbender's Magneto is the best portrayal of any comic book character yet.

I do see the major challenge in integrating this universe, and taking all the bad crap with it. How do you pick and choose only the good stuff? I would agree that scrapping the Fox Universe is probably the best choice. I'd actually prefer that over having another "5 year gap" reality alteration.

It wouldn't be too hard to explain even, as the mutants in the MCU thus far have their powers magnified or caused by the infinity stones. You could have a few old school mutants, who don't reveal themselves to humanity. Then when they start testing on the stones in WWII it creates a bunch more. Then a lot more once the infinity war saga occurs. Enough that they come to the surface and become public. I would much prefer that over Dr. Strange/Wanda just merging the universes.
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Old 03-12-2021, 03:39 PM   #370
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It's pretty easy to trash on the Fox X-men universe, because it was all over the map in quality and for its association with Bryan Singer, but it had some really great components and movies.

Logan, DoFP, First Class, and X2, were all top notch IMO. I'll even go as far to say that Fastbender's Magneto is the best portrayal of any comic book character yet.

I do see the major challenge in integrating this universe, and taking all the bad crap with it. How do you pick and choose only the good stuff? I would agree that scrapping the Fox Universe is probably the best choice. I'd actually prefer that over having another "5 year gap" reality alteration.

It wouldn't be too hard to explain even, as the mutants in the MCU thus far have their powers magnified or caused by the infinity stones. You could have a few old school mutants, who don't reveal themselves to humanity. Then when they start testing on the stones in WWII it creates a bunch more. Then a lot more once the infinity war saga occurs. Enough that they come to the surface and become public. I would much prefer that over Dr. Strange/Wanda just merging the universes.
Well to each their own obviously, as I said I recently revisited the whole thing, and my feeling was mostly just disappointment over how poorly any of them held up, for me. But then again I wasn't even that exited about Logan, and that at least is a legit good film.

I just don't really like most of the casting choices, and the characters are so all over the place. Even Wolverine is just so meh. Hugh Jackman does what he can, but the writing just ain't good. Or to my taste.

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Old 03-12-2021, 08:16 PM   #371
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In terms of casting, the only ones that are hit out of the park and should be reprised (rip Jackman) are MacAvoy, Fasbender, Peters... ... anyone in Deadpool.

They really have a great opportunity because the shifting cast is essentially three guys, and everyone else can be re-cast or their characters retired. I'd be ok with very few mutants.
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Old 03-13-2021, 04:17 AM   #372
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In terms of casting, the only ones that are hit out of the park and should be reprised (rip Jackman) are MacAvoy, Fasbender, Peters... ... anyone in Deadpool.

They really have a great opportunity because the shifting cast is essentially three guys, and everyone else can be re-cast or their characters retired. I'd be ok with very few mutants.
(Did some major edits for this post to clarify my post, sorry for anyone possibly replying to the first version.)

I don't much care for McAvoy or Fassbender, in these or in general really. I don't hate them, but personally I'd rather not have them back. To me the good ones were Jackman as Wolverine, Patrick Stewart as Xavier, Ellen (now Elliot) Page as Kitty, and Sophie Turner and Famke Janssen as Jean Grey. All of those characters are however dead, expert for Pryde, and that casting would now have a different issue. Although I think it would be incredibly cool if they made Pryde a transgender character and just kept Page, that would be an incredible internet s***storm.

The overall point is however that the major characters in X-universe are tied to the continuity problems of that universe, so they'd bring that story mess with them if you transferred those actual characters through some multiverse shenanigans. That's why it doesn't really matter here that X2 was a decent film, because if you brought in those characters, their background would also include the events of X1 and X3... or maybe not, depending on what point exactly on the X-timeline you'd choose as the point where the characters would come in. That's why I'm comfortable calling the X-universe overall hot garbage. Individual stronger films can't save the fact that the overarching stories are an absolute mess and the characters have really serious continuity issues in the way they're depicted from film to film. With a minor character like Quicksilver that's not really an issue, but with Wolverine you'd have to start making decisions about which bits of the X-storyline are actually part of that characters background in the MCU. It's certainly doable, but I don't see the value in it.

I mean sure, since Jackman just IS Wolverine and has already been in multiple timelines, so you could just make a couple of jokes to shrug it off in the beginning, but then if you started to write new stories for that character, it would be hard to build meaningful new arcs without first untangling the old ones, and the same goes for Magneto and Xavier. If you brought in the old characters, they bring their backgrounds with them from the X-movies, and that's just baggage for new writers wanting to do their own thing.

IF you wanted to bring in those old cast members, I think the only way it would make sense would be if you had them as purely supporting characters, but even in that case it would be somewhat weird to have the MCU versions intermingled with the Fox versions. It's very likely just best to either start from scratch with a completely new cast.

For Magneto and Xavier there would also be the issue that they've more or less already had all the key conversations you want those characters to have, many of them multiple times.

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Old 03-13-2021, 05:54 AM   #373
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I guess this thread is as good as any for mostly unrelated talk on how to bring the X-men into the MCU, so here's more on that, because I just want to put this somewhere

First, I would just not have Xavier at all. He's the one character that's actually been quite well done in the Fox films, and I just don't think there's much new stuff there. Not having him around also creates a ton of new possibilities for other characters to be leaders and mentors, which is fruitful ground for team stories.

Second, the lineup should be lead by Storm. She's the other iconic leader of X-men, and since the Avengers was such a sausage fest, it would just make sense to have the MCU version be much less so. Plus I think most fans would agree Storm is just the more interesting leader. I'm actually a fan of Cyclops, but even I would admit that he's extremely vanilla. I also really want to see punk rock Storm, and I think that look would again make it clear that this is not the Fox version of the character.

Third, a clearly different lineup from the Fox version. This I think just obviously makes sense, there's a ton of characters to explore, and a different lineup would lessen the direct comparisons between Foxverse and the MCU.

I would for example like to see a lineup of Storm, Gambit, Colossus, Kitty Pryde and Rogue. (Rogue is needed to power down Captain Marvel, and that's a classic X-men / Avengers storyline that hasn't been done yet.)

(Oh man, the flaming liberal in me would love a lineup with Colossus and Kitty dating as usual, but Kitty has recently become Kit Pryde, and that's a whole thing they're dealing with.)

Plotwise, this is how I'd do it:
The X-men (and possibly some mutants they're fighting?) end up stranded in the MCU, a universe without mutants, through some multiverse shenanigans. They're the only mutants here to begin with, but soon after others start appearing.

...No wait. This is how I'd actually do it
First, have several movies in a completely new universe. That universe is the home to the X-men, the Fantastic Four, and Dr. Doom and what ever other major characters you want to include.

THEN merge those two universes in a massive crossover event.

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Old 03-13-2021, 06:00 AM   #374
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(Did some major edits for this post to clarify my post, sorry for anyone possibly replying to the first version.)

I don't much care for McAvoy or Fassbender, in these or in general really. I don't hate them, but personally I'd rather not have them back. To me the good ones were Jackman as Wolverine, Patrick Stewart as Xavier, Ellen (now Elliot) Page as Kitty, and Sophie Turner and Famke Janssen as Jean Grey. All of those characters are however dead, expert for Pryde, and that casting would now have a different issue. Although I think it would be incredibly cool if they made Pryde a transgender character and just kept Page, that would be an incredible internet s***storm.

The overall point is however that the major characters in X-universe are tied to the continuity problems of that universe, so they'd bring that story mess with them if you transferred those actual characters through some multiverse shenanigans. That's why it doesn't really matter here that X2 was a decent film, because if you brought in those characters, their background would also include the events of X1 and X3... or maybe not, depending on what point exactly on the X-timeline you'd choose as the point where the characters would come in. That's why I'm comfortable calling the X-universe overall hot garbage. Individual stronger films can't save the fact that the overarching stories are an absolute mess and the characters have really serious continuity issues in the way they're depicted from film to film. With a minor character like Quicksilver that's not really an issue, but with Wolverine you'd have to start making decisions about which bits of the X-storyline are actually part of that characters background in the MCU. It's certainly doable, but I don't see the value in it.

I mean sure, since Jackman just IS Wolverine and has already been in multiple timelines, so you could just make a couple of jokes to shrug it off in the beginning, but then if you started to write new stories for that character, it would be hard to build meaningful new arcs without first untangling the old ones, and the same goes for Magneto and Xavier. If you brought in the old characters, they bring their backgrounds with them from the X-movies, and that's just baggage for new writers wanting to do their own thing.

IF you wanted to bring in those old cast members, I think the only way it would make sense would be if you had them as purely supporting characters, but even in that case it would be somewhat weird to have the MCU versions intermingled with the Fox versions. It's very likely just best to either start from scratch with a completely new cast.

For Magneto and Xavier there would also be the issue that they've more or less already had all the key conversations you want those characters to have, many of them multiple times.
I would just bring them in as alternate timeline versions of their old characters from the mcu. If you can't find a better option for wolverine than hugh jackman, then you just state he's the high jackman from this universe.

That being said, I honestly hope they just start fresh. The original xmen universe cast is all pretty old now. The first class generation still works age wise. Even that timeline seemed to have run it's course. A major issue with that universe was that it seemed stuck in a single emotional tone, so all the movies eventually became insanely repetitive.

Keep Evan Peters sure, but I'd rather overall just have something new and don't really see the benefit in bringing back the old cast.
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Old 03-13-2021, 09:54 AM   #375
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Probably obvious to others, but a horrible realization I just came to for the people of Westview is that half those kids would have been blipped back a week or two before becoming Wanda's puppets.

Families would still be struggling with the shocking miracle. There's probably a poor parent who had left Westview after their SO and child disappeared, waited 5 years for them to come back, got to Westview a day or two before Wanda only to lose their kid again this time in a fate worse than just blipping out of existence.

(Also less Wandavision related, but there would definitely be young children who lost their parents during the snap, got adopted, and then 5 years later their parents are back that they probably don't even remember. Fun custody battles there...)

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Quicksilver could still turn out to be quicksilver

The person in “witness protection” could be a mutant who crossed over in the multiverse which is why they sent the superhero involved FBI agent and a sword rep to track him down.
I think the only way to make the Fake-Quicksilver twist worse would be a reversal of it.

Even if you explain away Vision buying a house right next door to Quicksilver's witness protection program's house 5 years earlier, none of the Jimmy Woo stuff works.

Woo went looking on his own because relatives and friends of the witness inexplicably forgot he existed. That can't be Quicksilver as his relative would be Wanda, sort of, I guess. Woo also didn't think he had any powers, or he would have brought it up, and he didn't even recognize Quicksilver.

And then it was just a super coincidence that Agatha made a Fake Quicksilver, or so she thought, out of a real Quicksilver?

Like the aerospace engineer, the witness was just something that fans looked too big into (though I blame the writers) and was only a plot point to get Woo on. Of course they can retcon it, but it just wouldn't make sense.
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Old 03-13-2021, 10:07 AM   #376
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I like a lot of DC stuff, and as far as Marvel/DC content this show was much better. Production values and acting alone put this over the top.

The main issue for me is that they had some totally wacky and out of control powers and premise to work with, and provided the most straight forward plot possible. It was a show that dealt with altering reality, and everything ended up being just 100% face value. We had a House of M style plot with jumping through time and false realities, and we didn't even really get a twist, let alone a major change in the universe.

I liked the show overall, but would put it pretty far behind recent series like the Boys, the Umbrella Academy, or the Watchmen. The Boys and the Watchmen are both DC properties. So they can make great stuff....as long as it's not part of their main continuity.
I think we might still be going somewhat in that direction, but the thing with Marvel is most of these things are slow burns over multiple shows, I think they are pretty conscientious about dragging along casual fans, and they don't want to overwhelm them with crazy stories all at once, So we've seen the allusion to it with Spiderman, we've seen the warm up for in Wandavision, we can be pretty confident that Loki and WhatIf will be taking place in different realities so we are inching closer to a true multiverse (and they've already announced a movie with Multiverse in the title). Just imagine 15 years ago telling someone how aware the general public would be

I think it's one of the reason Ultron has aged pretty well, it was seen as sub standard when released, and not if you watch it as part of the series it just such an important inflection point in everyone character arc.

They've pretty much always broadcasted the direction they were moving 3-4 shows ahead of time, and they never jump too far ahead in the story with their plot twists. A lot of people seem to be bringing this up as a negative, but I think it's largely the reason for their success. Even Infinity War, opening day I sat in the theater in stunned silence for 10 minutes, but for 10 minutes leading up to the snap I was thinking there is a whole 'nother movie coming Thanos is going to win this round somehow, it wasn't a surprise ending.
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Old 03-23-2021, 11:09 PM   #377
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Old 03-25-2021, 10:25 AM   #378
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Old 03-26-2021, 08:04 AM   #379
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