The Deal With Geoff Ward

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Did anyone else see the whack interview with Babcock just now?

Dude still refers to himself in the 3rd person, and, while he gives lip services to “did I do anything wrong - sure” doesn’t cop to any specific accusations or say he’s sorry. And he acknowledged they tanked for Matthews.

Honestly it's refreshing when a coach admits his organization tanked. Fans have been told repeatedly over the years by media that teams don't tank but we know that's not the case and it's good to see confirmation.

[Strange Brew]

WelL I have also heard many NHL players state that coaching and systems are important. Versteeg in particular has talked about how the coach is most responsible for a team's start, as he sees the game plan as critical to engaging the players on your team, according to their skills.

[SuperMatt18]

I pulled together a view of the major stats (5v5) with the last 4 Flames head coaches.

Matches the eye test to me. Getting hemmed in their own zone a lot more and their Corsi Against, and Shots Against per 60 at 5v5 are way up. Likely due to the collapse system they play in their own end.

Offensively they are generating High Danger chances at a similar rate to before, but their shot totals and shot attempts are both down. Overall in terms of advanced stats Corsi For is still the best measure of future success for a team, and this team is way worse in that area playing Ward's system.

Honestly if not for Ward having the 6th best save percentage in the league in this time we'd be getting dummied. For a team that supposed to be playing a more defensive, playoff style system we sure seem to be giving up a lot more shots against.

6th best save percentage yet still only the 15th best point percentage. He's getting less out of a better roster than Gulutzan did, with the only difference is he has elite goaltending and better shooting percentage.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I pulled together a view of the major stats (5v5) with the last 4 Flames head coaches.

Matches the eye test to me. Getting hemmed in their own zone a lot more and their Corsi Against, and Shots Against per 60 at 5v5 are way up. Likely due to the collapse system they play in their own end.

Offensively they are generating High Danger chances at a similar rate to before, but their shot totals and shot attemps are both down.

Honestly if not for Ward having the 6th best save percentage in the league in this time we'd be getting dummied. For a team that supposed to be playing a more defensive, playoff style system we sure seem to be giving up a lot more shots against.

6th best save percentage yet still only the 15th best point percentage.

I simply cannot believe we are likely to burn through this core groups prime with THAT list of coaches.

I had so much faith in Treliving.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I simply cannot believe we are likely to burn through this core groups prime with THAT list of coaches.

I had so much faith in Treliving.

I agree those aren’t a good group of coaches. But this core isn’t really some elite group that’s only being held back by coaching.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree those aren’t a good group of coaches. But this core isn’t really some elite group that’s only being held back by coaching.

Repeatedly been said hire one of the big coaches out there and see! We are all making assumptions it's the coach its the players it this that whatever. Bring in someone and see what happens. Hate to waste a year of Markstrom and what could be Johnny's potential last year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Repeatedly been said hire one of the big coaches out there and see! We are all making assumptions it's the coach its the players it this that whatever. Bring in someone and see what happens. Hate to waste a year of Markstrom and what could be Johnny's potential last year.

Hard to disagree - bring in an established great coach like St. Louis did.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree those aren’t a good group of coaches. But this core isn’t really some elite group that’s only being held back by coaching.

I don't think the team is "elite" but these coaches certainly aren't getting the most out of the group that an elite coach likely would.

Only one way to find out, but for some reason Treliving refuses to do it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I don't think the team is "elite" but these coaches certainly aren't getting the most out of the group that an elite coach likely would.

Only one way to find out, but for some reason Treliving refuses to do it.

Trouble is - there’s only one coach available who’s even in the discussion as elite. If they can get Boudreau, fine. I don’t think Gallant or Julien are.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Trouble is - there’s only one coach available who’s even in the discussion as elite. If they can get Boudreau, fine. I don’t think Gallant or Julien are.

Boudreau is the one I want too.

The other two would still be substantial upgrades though, with proven track records of actual success as an NHL head coach.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I agree those aren’t a good group of coaches. But this core isn’t really some elite group that’s only being held back by coaching.

It's not an elite group, but it's still a pretty good roster that has performed a lot better than what Ward has gotten from them the last two seasons.

Over a three season span this core was getting top 10 results pretty much across the board but was getting poor goaltending and had a low shooting percentage.

Lets look at the 2016-2019 period in the regular season prior to the debacle against Colorado.

Points %: .579 (14th)
Goals For/60: 2.43 (13th)
Goals Against/60: 2.32 (12th)
Goal For %: 51.2% (13th)
xGF%: 51.5% (10th)

Corsi For/60: 59.6 (6th)
Corsi Against/60: 53.6 (4th)
Corsi %: 52.7 (3rd)

High Danger For/60: 10.9 (12th)
High Danger Against/60: 9.9 (9th)
High Danger %: 52.3% (9th)

Shooting Percentage: 7.84% (15th)
Save Percentage: .919 (23rd)

This was a top 10 roster in terms of generating and limiting shots and chances but were just getting terrible goaltending and had a low shooting percentage. And now that problem should be fixed with Markstrom and Rittich being a really good tandem, and the team shooting percentage being a lot higher than it was those three seasons too.

But the problem is in the 2 years since that playoff loss the team changed their systems to be more defensive and "heavier playoff hockey" and it just hasn't worked with this core.

Ward's point percentage is the same as this core the prior three years, so that looks okay. But he's getting top 6 goaltending compared to 23rd ranked goaltending. Meaning this team has fallen off pretty much everywhere else on the ice under him.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hard to disagree - bring in an established great coach like St. Louis did.

You are aware that Berube had head coaching experience and some success while in Philly, prior to being on St. Louis' staff? Also, the field of coaches was pretty limited when Yeo was canned, and they did have Berube as an associate to take over. Can't say the same depth exists in Calgary. Calgary has a collection of bargain bin coaches, so if Ward is sacked we have no one to rely on. We have to go outside the organization.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Boudreau is the one I want too.

The other two would still be substantial upgrades though, with proven track records of actual success as an NHL head coach.

I’ve never liked Julien as a coach. He won a cup a million years ago with Ward, riding Thomas and Rask, but after that I would have argued he gradually underperformed with his Boston team and his Montreal years have been bad, with calls for his firing pretty much every year. He coached them to two non PO years, gets replaced by Boston’s AHL coach Sullivan and the same crew has a cup finals and +.600 years every year since.

And Gallant obviously has some sort of issues issues. I don’t see him as an upgrade despite having a wild year in Vegas. He’s really only had two years you’d call very successful. And dumped pretty quickly afterwards. I’m surprised no stories have ever emerged as to underlying reasons

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hard to disagree - bring in an established great coach like St. Louis did.

2 Years of head Coaching experience one with playoffs.

Flames selection with this core
- Harley out of the league for many years
- GG 1.5 years of head coaching experience no playoffs
- Peters 4 years of head coaching experience no playoffs
- Ward tons of assistant coach experience with a cup.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

2 Years of head Coaching experience one with playoffs.

Flames selection with this core
- Harley out of the league for many years
- GG 1.5 years of head coaching experience no playoffs
- Peters 4 years of head coaching experience no playoffs
- Ward tons of assistant coach experience with a cup.

Oh sure, but I bet if the Flames had hired a Berube the posters here would howl that he wasn’t what they meant. Or, say, Sullivan replacing Julien.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

2 Years of head Coaching experience one with playoffs.

Flames selection with this core
- Harley out of the league for many years
- GG 1.5 years of head coaching experience no playoffs
- Peters 4 years of head coaching experience no playoffs
- Ward tons of assistant coach experience with a cup.

And that's the frustrating part. We all realize something needs to change with this core in the offseason, but how can you tell exactly what when then are hamstrung with a rookie head coach. Give the core the best chance to succeed with the best coach available and evaluate after that.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Hard to disagree - bring in an established great coach like St. Louis did.

Why does it hurt to try? Treliving has tried every other type of coach, why not try the elite coach? What worked for one team/core might not work for another.

In my opinion, this core needs a leader. They are so mentally fragile that they need a leader. Gulutzan and Ward are not that. Peters may have been, but he was also a racist, who knows, maybe he would have eventually turned it around but good riddance.

As for Berube, that guy was always a leader as a player. I don't doubt that he was a leader for that Blues team. Does Ward or Gulutzan really inspire you or give you confidence?

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by 868904

Why does it hurt to try? Treliving has tried every other type of coach, why not try the elite coach? What worked for one team/core might not work for another.

And the thing is too if he does finally bring in a legit coach and realizes the core needs to change he already has a legit coach. I don't think Ward would get much out of a different core either.

Some guys are just better as assistant coaches and he's one.

[Enoch Root]

posted these in another thread, but they should go here...

. . .

Look at the new guys like Leivo and Simon

Leivo: 0.527 PPG last year, 0.118 this year

Simon: 0.344 PPG last year, zero this year

Nordstrom: 0.354 PPG last year, zero this year

Did they all forget how to hockey? Or is there something wrong with the system?

. . .

Look at the Flames over the last 3 years (5 on 5 goals):

2018/19: 188 goals, 2.29 GPG (2nd)

2019/20: 133 goals, 1.90 GPG (21st)

2020/21: 32 goals, 1.60 GPG, (24th)

Are they getting less talented?

Is the league 'wise' to them, but not to the other teams in the league - just the Flames have been figured out?

It isn't complicated - they are the same team but they are not performing at the same level

. . .

The core is the same, so the talent is the same, but the production has been going steadily down. And it is team-wide, it isn't just a couple of guys

[Calgary4LIfe]

This team hasn't let a coach go who has gone on to show it was a mistake. Not a single one so far. To drive this point home further, only Bob Johnson and Darryl Sutter have gone on to coach and have more success elsewhere. Crisp coached for a bit and then he was out. After Crisp, it was mostly duds. I can't remember if Page went on to coach elsewhere (and I am too lazy to look it up - I figure if he did something noteworthy, I would remember). Then Darryl happened... and then since then, more of the same.


I think "you can't blame the coach" is an indefensible position to take now. Is it the same people now who are defending Ward the same that were defending and saying the same thing from Brent Sutter until now?


Maybe the coach isn't the biggest problem. Maybe this roster is more deeply flawed than a lot of people think it is. Maybe there is a culture issue, or a locker room issue, or whatever else. The coach right now has done diddly squat to make this a better team so far. He may not be the problem, but he isn't helping this team either, and I don't see him as a solution either.


If this team is a bunch of 'coach killers' - well, then why in the hell is an inexperienced head coach signed for 2 years? Doesn't fit the narrative of why this coach should be retained.


Try a new coach - someone experienced. If that does't work, take this deadline day to start making adjustments to the core... or just blow it up and start from scratch if that's what must be done.


The first step to me seems logical - bring someone in with experience and see if he can turn this team around - see if this team is even able to be turned around. If it is - well, that was easy! If it isn't? Large roster moves.



I just don't see why the coaching is even being defended any longer - I don't see the rationale, other than 'already did that'.



If you keep buying cheap knock-off smartphones, and continually get reception problems, maybe it isn't your carrier and is the phone that you have? How do you know if you never bought a good cellphone?



Maybe you already went through 5 used Toyotas and you didn't bother to really get any of them checked out, and they all disappointed you in how long they lasted you, you would probably think that Toyota makes unreliable cars.


Maybe it is the construction of the team. Maybe it needs core changes. Maybe it needs to be blown to smithereens and rebuilt from the ground up. All I can see is one coach after another being hired without a lick of success before getting here, or since leaving, but it must be the core?


I will say I don't know what it is, but I would start with the coach.