A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[sureLoss]

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Dany is now in a position where she may be able to convince the Khal of the group to join her as she continues her journey.

Theon is beginning his redemption, and Sansa is coming into her own as she is realizing how evil the world is and that she can't be the delicate flower that she was in the early seasons.

The Lannisters are undergoing their fall from grace and the arrogance of Cersei will be their undoing. Cersei is not smart and when she is angry she is prone to even more mistakes. King's Landing is set to collapse in on itself with religious zealots.

Jon Snow (whether he is dead or not) and the members on the wall on both sides are going to have some conflict as the real enemy is at their door.

Now things can build towards the second conflict between the white walkers and the race of man. Next season will likely be more like the first where incidents will cause all the pieces to fall into place for the next war.

Dany was in that position three years ago and failed to convince them, so that's not progression. The Lannister's are no different at the end than they are at the midpoint. The build up to the war with the walkers started with Hardhome, and it was awesome. Then they killed off the only two characters on the show who seemed to realize it was an issue.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by nik-

Dany was in that position three years ago and failed to convince them, so that's not progression. The Lannister's are no different at the end than they are at the midpoint. The build up to the war with the walkers started with Hardhome, and it was awesome. Then they killed off the only two characters on the show who seemed to realize it was an issue.

Don't think Dany is in the same position she was before. That group of Dohraki seemed to be looking for her, no? I don't think a bunch of them ascended on her just for sport. Certainly they saw and have heard about the huge dragons she has now, maybe a group saw her riding it. The way they were circling her leads me to believe they're there, for her specifically. Not to attack.

Could be wrong, but not in the same position IMO.

The Lannisters are f'n shattered IMO. Yeah, Cersei had a nice grin at the end but who is in charge, Kevan Lannister?

Jamie is a shell of his former self, Tyrion is off in Mereen, Cersei see above. Tommen is a scared boy locked away in his room because wifey is locked up and he's too afraid to do anything. Myrcella is DOA. We all wanted to see this happen to this family... it just didn't happen the way we'd like I suppose.

Though I don't know why characters always need progression to move. Sometimes regression is a thing, isn't it? Especially in a long format story. Ups and down, always spinning towards freedom, that sort of thing.

[nik-]

I don't think they were looking for her, I just think they came across her. How would they even know that she A) went to Mereen in the first place and then B) flew way north to be actively looking for her? Drogo died and then they just peaced out on her.

Yes, sometimes regression is a thing, and if Game of Thrones is just a character drama, then it totally works. However, this isn't "moving pieces into place" it's just character work. And it's not even new character work for some of them. Arya, Sansa and Tyrion are in a new situation as characters. The Lannisters? Oh, here's more suffering. Dany? Oh, you're likely a prisoner again or at best back to where you were before Drogo died. Jon's death punches a massive narrative hole in the show. And I don't even want to get started on Stannis.

My hope is that Game of Thrones isn't a character drama and that what was teased from the start, which was a futile power struggle between houses before a real threat presents itself, is the end goal. I saw this episode as moving away from this end goal and sliding back into old habit. After seeing a giant jump forward in Hardhome, it's frustrating. I don't need it to happen immediately, but I mean come on, we're 5 seasons in, do we really need to be treading water?

An honest question for you, where do you rank this season amongst the rest? Is it not easily the worst, even with the epic of episode 8?

[Jbo]

Why do seasons have to be "ranked"? I thought it was up there with some of the best of the entire series. Hell, Hardhome may be my favourite episode ever, and the follow up with Dany was amazing. Some plots did miss...Dorne I'm looking at you, but considering the show runners condensed two books of material, while advancing the white walker plot was a huge win. Season 2 is still my favourite overall, but this season was in no way a letdown

[Larry David]

Originally Posted by ScorchyScorch

Yup. That's the hope, anyways. And here's a thought. She saw Stannis overcoming Bolton and taking Winterfell but she also thought Stannis was Azor Ahai reborn. Maybe she was close to him, but like you said, realized it was in fact not Stannis. If Jon can be revived because of this then perhaps it's HE who is to overcome the Boltons and take Winterfell. Surely he wouldn't stay where he has no loyalty (but please kill Thorne), and he would be relieved of his watch as well, technically. I see Jon marching south with the help of a wildling army a la Davos' advice to take Winterfell next season. Him revealing himself as Azor Ahai and convincing them of being the one who can protect the realm from the approaching threat, I bet they would get behind him. Also seeing as he and Tormund have a good bond. I sure hope this is true. It would make a lot of fans happy as without Jon it's hard to get behind anybody at this point.

I also didn't buy Kit Harrington's interview on his death. He said he was told his character was "done" and when asked about his short term plans for the future it all sounded very tentative and undecided. And also didn't sound like he was planning to change his appearance or anything right away..

I hadn't thought of the marching to Winterfell angle to coincide with Melisandre's vision in the flames. Makes sense.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jbo

Why do seasons have to be "ranked"? I thought it was up there with some of the best of the entire series. Hell, Hardhome may be my favourite episode ever, and the follow up with Dany was amazing. Some plots did miss...Dorne I'm looking at you, but considering the show runners condensed two books of material, while advancing the white walker plot was a huge win. Season 2 is still my favourite overall, but this season was in no way a letdown

They don't have to be ranked. We also don't have to have a 300 page thread on the show. It's all just discussion and I'm curious.

[Larry David]

Originally Posted by nik-

They don't have to be ranked. We also don't have to have a 300 page thread on the show. It's all just discussion and I'm curious.

Seems to me that you've been trying very hard to convince everyone that the season "sucked" and baiting others in to arguments when they don't agree with you, so that you can point out all the reasons why it sucks again.

[nik-]

Ok.

I don't think the show sucks, but I do think that they got a lot wrong this season. I thought this season kind of sucked, but a season doesn't make a show.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Larry David

Seems to me that you've been trying very hard to convince everyone that the season "sucked" and baiting others in to arguments when they don't agree with you, so that you can point out all the reasons why it sucks again.

Exactly... The ranking question speaks to this completely.

I mean, I guess it was the worst of the five but I don't know, it didn't occur to me to rank them. What's the next worse, season 1? Season 4 got a lot of crap last season too but I watched it again and it was great, better then watching it week to week initially.

As for the Dany questions, Nik. I think it's entirely possible that tribe of Dohraki were trying/attempting to track her Dragon. The way they were circling her, coming at her from all angles seems it was more then just happened upon her.

Don't know if it matters if they know she went to Mereen at all. Drogo has been flying everywhere most of the season.

This tribe of Dohraki might not have anything to do with Kahl Drogo and his previous group.

[Jbo]

The show is really meant to be enjoyed as a binge watch. Just flows much better when you watch a bunch of episodes at once.

I remember when Sopranos was in its final season, I really was let down. Nothing could reach the highs of season 2 of that show. Since then I've re watched the entire series in a couple weeks and found a new appreciation and love for the show. I suspect GoT will be even greater on repeated viewings when the whole thing is wrapped up.

[Matata]

Re: EW interview, keep in mind that actors are basically professional liars and resurrected Jon Snow can have shorter hair without breaking continuity.

I was surprised to see the dornish lady (forgot her name) take the poison antidote, I guess she looks forward to being a disgraced traitor and spending the rest of her life in a cell or public execution.

[Flash Walken]

I thought this season was badass.

We saw the end of the Baratheon line if Gendry never comes back.

We got some epic confrontations with the White Walkers.

There was a Giant.

We got to watch Cercei be tortured psychologically.

Bronn was hilarious.

Big dragons.

Tyrion, great as always.

Sir Barristan ####ed some #### up.

Brienne got a Valyrian sword.

The Undead Mountain Kings Guard.

I really only felt dorn was a a bit boring and bad.

Even the Mereen stuff was better than seasons previous.

Pretty good season with a couple of very big twists, and a lot to look forward to next season.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I thought this season was badass.

We saw the end of the Baratheon line if Gendry never comes back.

We got some epic confrontations with the White Walkers.

There was a Giant.

We got to watch Cercei be tortured psychologically.

Bronn was hilarious.

Big dragons.

Tyrion, great as always.

Sir Barristan ####ed some #### up.

Brienne got a Valyrian sword.

The Undead Mountain Kings Guard.

I really only felt dorn was a a bit boring and bad.

Even the Mereen stuff was better than seasons previous.

Pretty good season with a couple of very big twists, and a lot to look forward to next season.

Couldn't agree more. Tyrion getting out of the box only to puke and rally was his best scene of the season.

Edit: or his scene with Dany when we talks about being the greatest Lannister killer of his time

[MrMastodonFarm]

Big progression of Beards this season. Tyrion rocking a thick one, Stannis with the grizzled war beard, just gorgeous Beards.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by nik-

Ok.

I don't think the show sucks, but I do think that they got a lot wrong this season. I thought this season kind of sucked, but a season doesn't make a show.

I agree with you. The season was mediocre at best. I actually started to roll my eyes at how often they are trying to hit you over the head with shocking moments now, they have pretty much lost their impact.

The best executed story line was probably Cersi's downfall, because you were wondering if she'd somehow get away with it. Her fall from grace in the finale was pretty epic.

So much of the rest of the stories just kind of became boring to watch. Even the Ramsey/Sansa/Reek ordeal went from feeling horrified for her, to "whatever" by the end. They dragged some plot lines on ridiculously long.

The Dorne parts were almost laughable at times, and not in a good way.

Highlight by a country mile was the battle with the white walkers.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by nik-

Dany? Oh, you're likely a prisoner again or at best back to where you were before Drogo died.

Daenerys was a naive girl who thought that when the Targaryens landed on Westeros the smallfolk would pick up their weapons and display the dragon sigil for their rightful king. She thought that she could rule an ancient city with little bloodshed despite destroying its traditions and customs. She was almost killed for her foolishness.

Daenerys story has always been about her getting to Westeros, first as a princess and then a queen. Now, I believe, it will be as a conquer. She's going to destroy that wheel and will be every bit as ruthless as Aegon was.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Big progression of Beards this season. Tyrion rocking a thick one, Stannis with the grizzled war beard, just gorgeous Beards.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Matata

Re: EW interview, keep in mind that actors are basically professional liars and resurrected Jon Snow can have shorter hair without breaking continuity.

I was surprised to see the dornish lady (forgot her name) take the poison antidote, I guess she looks forward to being a disgraced traitor and spending the rest of her life in a cell or public execution.

Ellaria Sand. Her total goal in the show seems to be avenging Elia and Oberyn, and she is willing to go to war to do so. I would guess that she will now plot with the Sand Snakes to assassinate Prince Doran and lead Dorne to war against the Lannisters. It won't be hard to rally the Dornish against them.

It's one good way to avoid punishment, but she's going to have to go through Areo Hotah to do it, and that's a big mutha with an even bigger axe.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by nik-

My hope is that Game of Thrones isn't a character drama and that what was teased from the start, which was a futile power struggle between houses before a real threat presents itself, is the end goal. I saw this episode as moving away from this end goal and sliding back into old habit. After seeing a giant jump forward in Hardhome, it's frustrating. I don't need it to happen immediately, but I mean come on, we're 5 seasons in, do we really need to be treading water?

But your frustration seems based on a lot of assumptions about how season 6 and thereon is going to go.
Unless you know something the rest of us don't, we have no way of knowing how these deaths impact the "end goal".

If we get 2-3 episodes into season 6 and it indeed plays out as another shuffle of who's in power and nothing more, then I'll completely agree with you. But with only 2-3 seasons left, I highly doubt that is the case.