Brad Treliving needs to go

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No you said one man is making the decision which is a dictatorship isn't it?

Pointed out that's not really the case.

Plus I'm not sure the "won't pay coaches" thing still works with Sutter done midseason during a pandemic is it?

Also have to wonder where Kirk Muller sits on the assistant coach scale. I would imagine on the higher end. Admittedly, pure speculation on my part though.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bingo

No you said one man is making the decision which is a dictatorship isn't it?

Pointed out that's not really the case.

Plus I'm not sure the "won't pay coaches" thing still works with Sutter done midseason during a pandemic is it?

I also don't imagine Kirk Muller is exactly a cheap Associate Coach.

[The Original FFIV]

Lots to unpack here.

Burke delegating. That’s what he was brought in for. To mentor a management team. With him gone, one would expect Brad to take charge. He’s not a mentor, he’s the GM.

Trade discussions. Brad runs a tight ship and few leaks happen as a result. Which is probably a good thing. I cringed when conroy said they were trying to move Derek Ryan and a last minute deal came in that was too late. As a fan, I love it, but imagine how Ryan felt playing out the stretch for a team that was actively trying to move him.

The X factor is Sutter. I imagine Treliving’s seat is warmer and with Sutter apparently having the ear of the owners, he will probably have more say than any of other Brad’s coaches when it comes to personnel. So while Brad may be the one making the deals, Sutter may be providing him the shopping list.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Lots to unpack here.

Burke delegating. That’s what he was brought in for. To mentor a management team. With him gone, one would expect Brad to take charge. He’s not a mentor, he’s the GM.

Trade discussions. Brad runs a tight ship and few leaks happen as a result. Which is probably a good thing. I cringed when conroy said they were trying to move Derek Ryan and a last minute deal came in that was too late. As a fan, I love it, but imagine how Ryan felt playing out the stretch for a team that was actively trying to move him.

The X factor is Sutter. I imagine Treliving’s seat is warmer and with Sutter apparently having the ear of the owners, he will probably have more say than any of other Brad’s coaches when it comes to personnel. So while Brad may be the one making the deals, Sutter may be providing him the shopping list.

Ryan was an expensive expiring contract and a useful guy for a contender. If I’m him I’m shocked if they aren’t looking to get something for me before I walk.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well Conroy only spoke to the trade decision making, not all decisions.

Hear lots about scouting from Conroy, and Pascal running the farm team completely.

I don't think it's fair to lump all of this into the dictator category.

This part of the interview also raised some concerns for me. If Pascal is running the farm team, and Conroy is helping with amateur scouting, who exactly is doing the pro scouting? That's where most of the Flames problems are coming from. In the interview Conroy, and whoever else was in the outer office at the time, didn't even know that Toronto was an option for a Rittich trade. If Treliving is keeping things so close to the vest that his assistant GMs don't even know the potential trade partners in the closing hours before the deadline, then is he getting any second opinions on anything?

Did he consult with anyone before signing Brouwer or Neal to those contracts or giving up a 1st and two 2nds for Hamonic? All three of those are brutal and maybe could have been avoided if there were some other opinions being considered.

[GioforPM]

^^ If you look at their staff page there are 17 members of the scouting staff but only 2 identified as pro scouts (one is Loob). I think Derek Mackinnon has a role as well. As for heading it, Maloney was first hired as a pro scout so maybe that’s his role. I imagine Snow’s analytical job was a lot about pro identification.

But yeah, it seems like they are super amateur heavy and pro lite when it comes to scouting. maybe they figure they play the pros all the time so they don’t need as many scouts.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

But yeah, it seems like they are super amateur heavy and pro lite when it comes to scouting. maybe they figure they play the pros all the time so they don’t need as many scouts.

I think you're correct that they have that theory. But I think the evidence points to the theory being incorrect.

Even when they seem to get the valuation correct, like with Derek Ryan, they seem to have missed the mark in the eyes of the other GMs in the league. The fact they couldn't move his last 2 months of contract for anything at all is another mark against the pro scouting/GM.

[GioforPM]

With Mackinnon and Maloney, it seems like their top guys are both ex Coyotes scouts. I don’t recall that team excelling at pro scouting. Conroy has little to no ground up experience in that job.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

This part of the interview also raised some concerns for me. If Pascal is running the farm team, and Conroy is helping with amateur scouting, who exactly is doing the pro scouting? That's where most of the Flames problems are coming from. In the interview Conroy, and whoever else was in the outer office at the time, didn't even know that Toronto was an option for a Rittich trade. If Treliving is keeping things so close to the vest that his assistant GMs don't even know the potential trade partners in the closing hours before the deadline, then is he getting any second opinions on anything?

Did he consult with anyone before signing Brouwer or Neal to those contracts or giving up a 1st and two 2nds for Hamonic? All three of those are brutal and maybe could have been avoided if there were some other opinions being considered.

Agree completely. I imagine as GM the only person he's truly consulting is the President and maybe ownership (depending how dotted line the relationships are with ownership). Treliving has always been about chasing the flavour of the month so I imagine the league hype at the time on Hamonic got him really riled up to go for it. The desperation to get the guy at any cost really cost them a ton. Life of a competitive old school business guy - win at all costs.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

This part of the interview also raised some concerns for me. If Pascal is running the farm team, and Conroy is helping with amateur scouting, who exactly is doing the pro scouting? That's where most of the Flames problems are coming from. In the interview Conroy, and whoever else was in the outer office at the time, didn't even know that Toronto was an option for a Rittich trade. If Treliving is keeping things so close to the vest that his assistant GMs don't even know the potential trade partners in the closing hours before the deadline, then is he getting any second opinions on anything?

Did he consult with anyone before signing Brouwer or Neal to those contracts or giving up a 1st and two 2nds for Hamonic? All three of those are brutal and maybe could have been avoided if there were some other opinions being considered.

For the bolded two, I presume he ran it by the POHO since they actually had one then...the blunders have actually slowed down significantly since Burke left...

[DazzlinDino]

I think in the case of trades Treliving holds his cards close to his vest. Considering we seem to lose out on some trades when stuff gets leaked this is understandable. As mentioned a few posts up, this type of management is "direct style" where the manager makes the decisions. This can have some limits since resources, and input is coming through one person. Then as mentioned earlier you have delegating which is another style of management, but usually still limited to what the "manager" wants to do. "Self-empowerment" is more where the manager gives people the means, and the tools to be more involved. He empowers others to do the work. This is what Conroy was referring to with Brian.

On the topic of trades, maybe Treliving has a reason for his approach. That doesn't mean he doesn't uses other styles of management in other areas out side of trades. Maybe Conroy is just sharing this as it relates to "who" is responsible for how these trades go down, but if he or the other assistants feel they should, or want to be more involved they approach Treliving directly and communicate that. Especially if they see it as hindering other opportunities; Or even if it is just giving insight into a players characteristics. If Conroy wants to be a future GM he has to be able to be more forthcoming and communicate that to the GM. I doubt he would get fired for something like this, you want Treliving to open his eyes and you want to foster a more dynamic approach that covers all the bases.

Treliving has made mistakes, he usually tries to correct and remedy them, but it is disappointing at times that he is stubborn. He has probably had a big wake up call and is learning a lot right now from Darryl. Darryl sits rookies and wants experienced coaches for a reason, sure we need rookies to develop in the system but now the expectations are ramped up and now they have to pay attention to details and get it right. Treliving has been stubborn in his approach and in his coaching hires and maybe needs to change his approach. If his assistants are wanting to be involved and feel they have something to offer, then maybe Treliving needs to take advantage of an opportunity to grow some more.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

For the bolded two, I presume he ran it by the POHO since they actually had one then...the blunders have actually slowed down significantly since Burke left...

Significantly? They've maybe slowed a little, but even that's pretty debatable. He got nothing for Brodie, gave up assets for depth defensemen at the 2020 deadline so that Stone and Kylington could eat popcorn, made no changes to a core that obviously needed it last off season, and gave Tkachuk an awful second contract requiring a 9M qualifying offer. Not to mention Markstrom's contract has plenty of room to blow up in their faces and he let his only good goalie move (signing Talbot) walk to make it happen.


Edit: I forgot to even mention the coaching hires of Peters and Ward! Blunders are definitely not slowing post POHO.

[neo45]

It’s actually impressive how Treliving has been in charge of this hockey team for more than 7 years and has managed to deliver a non playoff team, with cap problems, AND a bottom 5 prospect pool all while keeping his job

He’s a terrible GM but he must be world class at managing expectations and assigning blame

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by neo45

It’s actually impressive how Treliving has been in charge of this hockey team for more than 7 years and has managed to deliver a non playoff team, with cap problems, AND a bottom 5 prospect pool all while keeping his job

He’s a terrible GM but he must be world class at managing expectations and assigning blame

So you don't like him?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So you don't like him?

Terrible is a strong word but he's correct about the situation of the team being non-playoff, having cap issues, and one of the worst prospect bases in the NHL. There can't be many markets in the NHL where a GM would keep his job under these circumstances.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So you don't like him?

I took away that he was impressed

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Terrible is a strong word but he's correct about the situation of the team being non-playoff, having cap issues, and one of the worst prospect bases in the NHL. There can't be many markets in the NHL where a GM would keep his job under these circumstances.

Yeah if you see it that way.

I see it as betting on a core that didn't work out.

That explains going for it by trading picks, and trying to add through free agency.

If the owners were on board with the call on the core, I can't see them letting the guy go for carrying out the plan that he suggested and they signed off on.

The system isn't all that bad considering the lack of picks and recent graduations, and he certainly has a few bright spots on his resume.

This seems to possibly be the case since he's still employed.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah if you see it that way.

I see it as betting on a core that didn't work out.

That explains going for it by trading picks, and trying to add through free agency.

If the owners were on board with the call on the core, I can't see them letting the guy go for carrying out the plan that he suggested and they signed off on.

The system isn't all that bad considering the lack of picks and recent graduations, and he certainly has a few bright spots on his resume.

This seems to possibly be the case since he's still employed.

Maybe I'm of a different mindset but I want my GM to be forward thinking and not a gambler. Treliving gambled and lost and it set the organization back years. That's cause for termination as far as I'm concerned. He's still employed because the Flames owners are probably getting tired paying for coaches and players that are no longer with the organization and it was cheaper to bring back Darryl to try and make something of Treliving's mess. Even Darryl has acknowledged he's been brought in to try and right the ship that's not operating with an elite crew.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Terrible is a strong word but he's correct about the situation of the team being non-playoff, having cap issues, and one of the worst prospect bases in the NHL. There can't be many markets in the NHL where a GM would keep his job under these circumstances.

Terrible seems about right to me. What GMs in the league are demonstrably worse? Maybe Benning? Some would have previously said Bergeron, but that seems dubious given the current situation for both teams.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah if you see it that way.

I see it as betting on a core that didn't work out.

That explains going for it by trading picks, and trying to add through free agency.

If the owners were on board with the call on the core, I can't see them letting the guy go for carrying out the plan that he suggested and they signed off on.

The system isn't all that bad considering the lack of picks and recent graduations, and he certainly has a few bright spots on his resume.

This seems to possibly be the case since he's still employed.

It's definitely possible. But so is Neo45's assertion that he is world class at managing an absentee owner's expectations and assigning blame. He would hardly be the first executive to rise to the top with that skillset. It happens in businesses of all kinds all over the world.