Brad Treliving needs to go

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by cannon7

There are literally posters here posting the equivalent of "I don't think the Flames will find a better GM, so might as well stay with Treliving."

As such, the not wanting to leave a job analogy seems apt.

If that's demeaning, then maybe posters shouldn't openly express their doubts that the Flames can do any better than the mediocrity on the display the past seven years?

Such an optimist. I'm sure the Flames could end up with a worse GM despite their best efforts.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Is "worst case" that much worse than seven more years of what we've had the past seven years?

One playoff series win vs. ...none? Oh the humanity!

Like a said before with fans being conditioned to losing that I don't think some fans realize how bad this organization has been. This is one of the worst organizations in the NHL and some fans are scared of taking a chance to get better. It's crazy.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Like a said before with fans being conditioned to losing that I don't think some fans realize how bad this organization has been. This is one of the worst organizations in the NHL and some fans are scared of taking a chance to get better. It's crazy.

Perhaps fans do think that the decision making at the top is getting better? The draft seems to have improved compared to previous regimes. The contract re-signing is about average. The big game UFA signings last season seem to be much better than before.


Now as a whole this management's biggest mistakes came from:
1. Coaching
2. The goalie search
3. The top line RW search


The first two seem to be set. The search for a RW is ongoing. It is obvious to everyone that changes are needed. Unfortunately, other GMs are aware of it too and look at it like an opportunity. I'm not sure how many deals has Brad walked away from. Especially last year when cap space was at a premium.



I have my own questions about the mix in the room. There's something wrong with the core players in this group. They keep reverting to playing like individuals as soon as the going gets tough. I also don't like the tries to dump on players once they leave town by the media(I'm not sure if its coming from above or not). I was not a fan of the Hamilton museum comments.


I do agree with you though, it is time for a change, because what the Flames have is not working. That or its working way too slowly to make any impact.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Are there actually arguments against "upgrading the GM"? I think the difference of opinion is more centred on whether Treliving is the best available GM or not. From my perspective, I don't think there is a clear available upgrade. If there were, I would be all for it.

I don’t know if anyone advocating bringing Treliving back has actually put forward an assessment of available GM candidates and claimed he is the best of the group. Frankly that’s near impossible. How could we really know?

I assume that most people arguing to keep him feel the club is on the right track and that he is building a contender. If you don’t feel that is true, why not take the mystery box? It’s like making a small stakes bet with a potentially big payoff.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm all for an honest debate about Treliving and I'm one who thinks he should be let go, based mainly of a lack of results, and not particular errors (though there are two major ones I believe he made).

What I do that casts me as some sort of defender is that I dislike incorrect arguments or false narratives. this isn't, as someone suggested, just because I like to argue. It's more that, if you are replacing a guy you should at least be honest about why you are doing so, or else you are going to get the same result next time.

Agreed. I think results and the finished product are both still a big question marks for this team. It is not that I don't think Brad is able, but I do believe inexperience has played a role in the team spinning it's tires at various times. The ability to get a quality on ice product while keeping up with other NHL teams seems to be lacking. We appear to be falling behind in the race while other teams are getting stronger. I am hoping if Treliving does stay that, he and Darryl come up with a clear direction that can get this ship focused in the right direction, If they can't we might be heading for another rebuild due to a weakened roster.

[Gazza]

I get the impression there are a lot of fans who want change. Even the GM said there needs to be change. And with the weeks gone by since the end of the season with no change it is causing unease with some.

Continuously paying people to not be part of the organization is not a good business model. They have done it with coaching. I do not forsee them doing it with a GM. The time for that change was before the last contact was signed.

I suspect he will return, albeit with a lot of scrutiny from the fans. More than what has already been shown.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

What is the worst thing a bad GM could do? Tank the team so we start fresh with picks?

I guess trade picks and tank the team would be THE WORST, but really - Can the Flames be in a much worse position with a new GM?

Squander time sensitive assets like Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Gio, Monahan.

I suppose the reverse question is what's the best thing a new GM could do [that Brad presumably couldn't]?


I think the team is a mess and there is only faint hope of a succesful re-tool. I just don't see anyone else being able to navigate the next 3-6 months especially better.

I think the reality of this team is closer to what we saw Feb 2019-August 2020. Not the first 4 month run under Peters, and not the most recent 4 months, either. Which is still a mediocre team at best, but firing a GM over 56 games feels a little knee-jerk to me.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Squander time sensitive assets like Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Gio, Monahan.

I suppose the reverse question is what's the best thing a new GM could do [that Brad presumably couldn't]?


I think the team is a mess and there is only faint hope of a succesful re-tool. I just don't see anyone else being able to navigate the next 3-6 months especially better.

I think the reality of this team is closer to what we saw Feb 2019-August 2020. Not the first 4 month run under Peters, and not the most recent 4 months, either. Which is still a mediocre team at best, but firing a GM over 56 games feels a little knee-jerk to me.

So lets say a new GM squanders them. And we finished bottom of the league for 2 years.

Is that a much worst scenario then where we are?

The best thing a new GM could do is show they are good at evaluating players worth and trade these players for assets to construct a TEAM capable of competing.

After 7 years I don't think Tre can do that. So a new GM at least has the potential. I don't think Tre is terrible at any 1 thing. But he is seems to be missing the vision to create a well constructed TEAM


And if they suck? Well we are in a forced rebuild. Not the worst thing.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

...but firing a GM over 56 games feels a little knee-jerk to me.

528 games as Flames GM is not knee-jerk.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So lets say a new GM squanders them. And we finished bottom of the league for 2 years.

Is that a much worst scenario then where we are?

The best thing a new GM could do is show they are good at evaluating players worth and trade these players for assets to construct a TEAM capable of competing.

After 7 years I don't think Tre can do that. So a new GM at least has the potential. I don't think Tre is terrible at any 1 thing. But he is seems to be missing the vision to create a well constructed TEAM


And if they suck? Well we are in a forced rebuild. Not the worst thing.

Yes trade those picks for a Phil Kessel, have them turn into the 2nd overall, and lose a young prospect like Seguin to your rivals. Oh and it wasn't just Seguin, but also Hamilton.


Worst case scenario is not to suck... It's to suck and still trade away your top picks.


Edit: that sort of management could also overpay for average assets long term, so that when your window opens you don't have the cap to resign the young players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by cannon7

There are literally posters here posting the equivalent of "I don't think the Flames will find a better GM, so might as well stay with Treliving."

As such, the not wanting to leave a job analogy seems apt.

If that's demeaning, then maybe posters shouldn't openly express their doubts that the Flames can do any better than the mediocrity on the display the past seven years?

Seriously?

I have had plenty of discussions with people that want Treliving gone, or that I rarely agree with where I haven't felt the need to suggest thinking otherwise is akin to having low self esteem, or wanting mediocrity, or the like.

What does that add?

A good example from my perspective is Strange Brew. He doesn't agree with a lot of what I have to say ... I probably don't agree with a lot he has to say. But I'd like to think there's a degree of respect that keeps the discussion, just that ... a discussion.

I don't have a single desire to convince any one that wants the man gone that they're wrong. So I'm certainly not going to suggest some nefarious reason has to exist because they don't agree with what I think is the best path.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Squander time sensitive assets like Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Gio, Monahan.

I suppose the reverse question is what's the best thing a new GM could do [that Brad presumably couldn't]?


I think the team is a mess and there is only faint hope of a succesful re-tool. I just don't see anyone else being able to navigate the next 3-6 months especially better.

I think the reality of this team is closer to what we saw Feb 2019-August 2020. Not the first 4 month run under Peters, and not the most recent 4 months, either. Which is still a mediocre team at best, but firing a GM over 56 games feels a little knee-jerk to me.

I really don't understand trading away any of those assets 2 seasons ago. Who knew they were time sensitive?
1. Gio was a Norris defenseman 2 years ago (okay, I can understand a little time sensitive)
2. Gaudreau had 99 pts 2 years ago, at 25 years old
3. Monahan was an 82 pt center 2 years ago, at 24 years old
4. Tkachuk had 77 pts as a 21 year old winger

Everything was pointing in a positive direction, with young talent, skill, not to mention that the Flames finished 1st in the west.

You don't break up a core that is performing considerably above average, unless there are significant concerns.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don’t know if anyone advocating bringing Treliving back has actually put forward an assessment of available GM candidates and claimed he is the best of the group. Frankly that’s near impossible. How could we really know?

I assume that most people arguing to keep him feel the club is on the right track and that he is building a contender. If you don’t feel that is true, why not take the mystery box? It’s like making a small stakes bet with a potentially big payoff.

Who's hiring the new GM? They got Burke to do it last time. Do we trust Edwards/Bean more?

Lombardi - age 63; unclear if he'd want to come here

Futa - age 53; apparently his greatest strengths are amateur scouting/drafting. I'd be all for it if ownership wants to rebuild.

Gorton - age 53; good experience with BOS and NYR. Seems to have been involved in convincing Dolan/Sather to send "the letter" (of course we have no idea who advocated for it). Is CGY a likely next destination after BOS and NYR???

Tallon/Rutherford = 70+

Who else is out there?
Mike Gillis (lol)
Paul Fenton
Ray Shero
Tim Murray/Jason Botterill/Nonis/Chiarelli
Greg Sherman
Joe Nieuwendyk
Garth Snow

Or some of the new guys that are rumoured?

There are more seats than competent GMs.

The only two I'm pretty certain would be an upgrade are Lombardi and Gorton. Given their prior teams, I'm not convinced they'd be keen to come here.

Fenton/Shero/Futa? I just don't see much difference from Tre.

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So lets say a new GM squanders them. And we finished bottom of the league for 2 years.

Is that a much worst scenario then where we are?

The best thing a new GM could do is show they are good at evaluating players worth and trade these players for assets to construct a TEAM capable of competing.

After 7 years I don't think Tre can do that. So a new GM at least has the potential. I don't think Tre is terrible at any 1 thing. But he is seems to be missing the vision to create a well constructed TEAM


And if they suck? Well we are in a forced rebuild. Not the worst thing.

That's fair enough, but IMO it ignores the reality of our ownership.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So lets say a new GM squanders them. And we finished bottom of the league for 2 years.

Is that a much worst scenario then where we are?

The best thing a new GM could do is show they are good at evaluating players worth and trade these players for assets to construct a TEAM capable of competing.

After 7 years I don't think Tre can do that. So a new GM at least has the potential. I don't think Tre is terrible at any 1 thing. But he is seems to be missing the vision to create a well constructed TEAM


And if they suck? Well we are in a forced rebuild. Not the worst thing.

So let’s say a new GM squanders our top assets and the team finishes in the middle of the pack for 2 more years.

That is a much worse situation we are in today. Your narrative only works with the Flames being a bottom feeder team over the next 2 years. Even if this team did absolutely nothing this offseason I think there is a better than reasonable chance that a full year under Sutter, with fans, and normal divisions will result in the Flames being around the same or slightly better than they were this year.

As much as some people may think it this is not a bottom 5 team in the league

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by krynski

I really don't understand trading away any of those assets 2 seasons ago. Who knew they were time sensitive?
1. Gio was a Norris defenseman 2 years ago (okay, I can understand a little time sensitive)
2. Gaudreau had 99 pts 2 years ago, at 25 years old
3. Monahan was an 82 pt center 2 years ago, at 24 years old
4. Tkachuk had 77 pts as a 21 year old winger

Everything was pointing in a positive direction, with young talent, skill, not to mention that the Flames finished 1st in the west.

You don't break up a core that is performing considerably above average, unless there are significant concerns.

Trading those assets then, while in hindsight wise, would have required a crystal ball. And the fans and posters would have revolted.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So let’s say a new GM squanders our top assets and the team finishes in the middle of the pack for 2 more years.

That is a much worse situation we are in today. Your narrative only works with the Flames being a bottom feeder team over the next 2 years. Even if this team did absolutely nothing this offseason I think there is a better than reasonable chance that a full year under Sutter, with fans, and normal divisions will result in the Flames being around the same or slightly better than they were this year.

As much as some people may think it this is not a bottom 5 team in the league

I’m confused . If a new GM squanders the assets and we finish middle of the pack that’s worse then the current situation of being middle of the pack?

How is that worse ? Seems exactly where we have been for 30 years

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I’m confused . If a new GM squanders the assets and we finish middle of the pack that’s worse then the current situation of being middle of the pack?

How is that worse ? Seems exactly where we have been for 30 years

I am of the belief Treliving will make more change to this team than a new GM for next season. I think a new GM will come in and tinker while getting his bearings on the people he has in the organization where Treliving is more likely to make a big change because he has no other choice. Personally I have liked most of his player for player trades so I am not concerned with him making the moves

If a new GM comes in here and loses our assets for nothing and tries to win for 2 years and they get to rebuild the team? Sounds like another Feaster 2.0 to me

[Poe969]

Unless an experienced GM comes in with a plan, like an actual layout of what they want. Not even that, just someone who looks at this roster and can see it just isn't good enough. Someone to come in and say "I want to make sweeping changes and start something new" instead of someone who's never done this and wants more time with this roster to see what they can do. We know what they can do and it isn't good.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by krynski

I really don't understand trading away any of those assets 2 seasons ago. Who knew they were time sensitive?
1. Gio was a Norris defenseman 2 years ago (okay, I can understand a little time sensitive)
2. Gaudreau had 99 pts 2 years ago, at 25 years old
3. Monahan was an 82 pt center 2 years ago, at 24 years old
4. Tkachuk had 77 pts as a 21 year old winger

Everything was pointing in a positive direction, with young talent, skill, not to mention that the Flames finished 1st in the west.

You don't break up a core that is performing considerably above average, unless there are significant concerns.

Maybe we are putting too much faith in the core and neglecting to keep the machine oiled by adding quality pieces. Sure they peaked, but then we realized they couldn't keep pace in the playoffs. I am of the view we set the bar too low and instead of adding more hi-end pieces we tend adding players to fill the gaps. Part of that was coming out of the rebuild too soon and not having quality players coming up the pipeline or amply filling the gaps that were sorely lacking. When we couldn't fill those, we add more stop gaps; Those players are not getting the job done.

It is obvious we had good players, we peaked but as some mentioned some elite players on other teams seem to be going strong while our own Monahan seems to be declining. Flames need to do a better job, trade those declining pieces while they still have value. GIO may have had a Norris season but an experienced team likely would have traded him at his peak, instead of hanging on until he continues to decline and loses value.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I am of the belief Treliving will make more change to this team than a new GM for next season. I think a new GM will come in and tinker while getting his bearings on the people he has in the organization where Treliving is more likely to make a big change because he has no other choice. Personally I have liked most of his player for player trades so I am not concerned with him making the moves

If a new GM comes in here and loses our assets for nothing and tries to win for 2 years and they get to rebuild the team? Sounds like another Feaster 2.0 to me

Are you of the belief Tre can make this team into a winner? If not, keeping him because of what could be worst is a horrible idea and destined to keep us on the same path as the last 30 years.

If you want to argue you believe Tre can build a Stanley Cup winning it's one thing, but being worried we shouldn't change GM's because "Someone could come in who is worst" is a horrible way to make decisions.

But with the Flames top brass, you are probably correct they would screw it up