Brad Treliving needs to go

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Jore

Letting BT loose with a "save your job" mandate seems like a great way to further mire the team in long term anchors and mediocrity

Do you expect anything differently? This is the Calgary Flames. Last time they did something right it was 2 years too late and we got Monahan and Gaudreau.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Bringing back Ward should have been the final nail in his coffin. It still baffles me why he thought that was a good idea.

For one thing, Treliving, and probably the owners, were only going to make a move if Sutter was going to accept an offer to come back. Treliving is on record saying as much. Secondly, Ward was, in all likelihood, a cheap option and given how the team preformed under him from the Peters situation to the bubble, deserved consideration. His deal was also short term, 2 years. In other words, it wasn’t going to be too difficult to move on if things didn’t work out.

I suspect the Flames and Sutter were in contact with one another for some time before he accepted the job. This would explain the 3 week period after the season where there was nothing coming from the Flames regarding Wards situation, or what direction they were going to go in. They were in discussions with Sutter.

It’s not baffling at all knowing what we know now. The Flames wanted to hire Sutter. Sutter wasn’t willing to commit likely due to a number of factors; he had previously retired, we’re in the middle of a pandemic, and family considerations. Sounds harsh, but Ward was likely a lame duck coach since he inherited the job. The Flames/Treliving knew who their guy was, they were just going to half to be patient.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Burke sure helped run this team into the ground with “quick rebuild” as Tre’s mentor.
I hope that doesn’t get lost in any of the fall out.

Not with me. I’ve been very critical of Brian Burke in the past. I actually put 100% blame on him for the direction the amateur scouting went for the 2013 & 2014 drafts. Keegan Kanzig and Hunter Smith? Those are Brian Burke type picks. His track record at the draft is hideous and he should never have been hired.

If I give Brad Treliving credit for anything, it’s his amateur draft philosophy. You can see it literally change over night. In 2015, they group focused more on skill regardless of size and they ended up with Andrew Mangiapane in 2015 and Adam Fox in 2016. Had Treliving been in charge of the 2014 draft, I’m sure Brayden Point would be a Flame. He absolutely fits the bill of a small, but highly skilled player.

[Jore]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Do you expect anything differently? This is the Calgary Flames. Last time they did something right it was 2 years too late and we got Monahan and Gaudreau.

Agreed, but we actually got Hanowski, Agostino, Cundari, Berra, Klimchuck, and Poirier from that time. Amazing asset management, as we can see.

Gaudreau taken in the 4th round is one of the great success stories of Flames drafting. You can't blame him for the fact that he's been stapled to Monahan his whole career and this core pretty much topped out as a playoff contender to first round exit team.

[DeluxeMoustache]

@C4L, regarding the bar

When Treliving fired Hartley, it wasn’t for incompetence

His message was that he thought Hartley had taken the team as far as he could. That same bar should apply here. I’ve seen all I need to see

After 7 years, his top skaters include Sutter draft picks Backlund and Gio, Feaster picks Monahan and Gaudreau, his draft pick Tkachuk and his trade Lindholm

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Not with me. I’ve been very critical of Brian Burke in the past. I actually put 100% blame on him for the direction the amateur scouting went for the 2013 & 2014 drafts. Keegan Kanzig and Hunter Smith? Those are Brian Burke type picks. His track record at the draft is hideous and he should never have been hired.

If I give Brad Treliving credit for anything, it’s his amateur draft philosophy. You can see it literally change over night. In 2015, they group focused more on skill regardless of size and they ended up with Andrew Mangiapane in 2015 and Adam Fox in 2016. Had Treliving been in charge of the 2014 draft, I’m sure Brayden Point would be a Flame. He absolutely fits the bill of a small, but highly skilled player.

It's hard to make an assumption like that, but it's certainly possible. If Burke hadn't mishandled Cammalleri, we may well have had an extra 2nd or 3rd in the chamber that year.

EF said on the TDL podcast that Burke claimed his best offer for Cammi was a 5th and he was holding out for a 3rd. I suspect the kernel of truth in that is he got that offer at 1:55pm, but he very likely turned down better offers previously.

His stubborness resulted in a 6 pick draft...pretty weird for a bottom-out year. 4 picks in the top 64, but the other two were 175 and 184. Notable 4th and 5th rounders who we never had a crack at include: Wallmark, D Toews, Shesterkin, Kahkonen, Arvidsson, Heinen, Forsling, Lindblom, and Bjork; not to mention Labanc (171), Blais (176), and Olofsson (181), Engvall, Kase, and Jake Evans.

We got Bennett and 5 donuts. But at least everybody knows that we won't sell at *checks notes* market value.

[powderjunkie]

Unless you have a surefire replacement (Lombardi the only standout for me), it's pointless to fire BT right now.

1. Complicated off-season

2. The team isn't actually at much of a crossroads (compared to past few seasons or 2022). Gaudreau is the only urgent decision.

3. While I don't think the team is anywhere near good enough, they aren't this bad, either. If things return to normal, it's a crapshoot division next year with:

VGK
EDM, CGY, VAN, SJ, SEA, LAK, ANA

Any combo of those last 7 could make the playoffs. Owners aren't tearing down with playoff revenue a coin flip away.

4. 2022 will be a landscape changing off-season in the league. You want the best possible guy at the tiller at that point. It probably isn't BT, but I'd look to decide that in August, or December (pending performance to those times).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

@C4L, regarding the bar

When Treliving fired Hartley, it wasn’t for incompetence

His message was that he thought Hartley had taken the team as far as he could. That same bar should apply here. I’ve seen all I need to see

After 7 years, his top skaters include Sutter draft picks Backlund and Gio, Feaster picks Monahan and Gaudreau, his draft pick Tkachuk and his trade Lindholm

Well, they also include Mangiapane, Hanifin, Andersson, Dube and Tanev. Just to be fair.

I generally agree - not incompetent. But not successful and they maybe could use a change.

[TheChief]

Brad has had his run in the sun, for 7 years. Outside the one western conference regular season winning season this team hasn't improved. Its time for a change and everyone knows it.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

@C4L, regarding the bar

When Treliving fired Hartley, it wasn’t for incompetence

His message was that he thought Hartley had taken the team as far as he could. That same bar should apply here. I’ve seen all I need to see

After 7 years, his top skaters include Sutter draft picks Backlund and Gio, Feaster picks Monahan and Gaudreau, his draft pick Tkachuk and his trade Lindholm

Regarding Hartley, it has also been discussed fairly openly that the players didn’t want him back.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, they also include Mangiapane, Hanifin, Andersson, Dube and Tanev. Just to be fair.

I generally agree - not incompetent. But not successful and they maybe could use a change.

I suspect more on the way too.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by TOfan

For one thing, Treliving, and probably the owners, were only going to make a move if Sutter was going to accept an offer to come back. Treliving is on record saying as much. Secondly, Ward was, in all likelihood, a cheap option and given how the team preformed under him from the Peters situation to the bubble, deserved consideration. His deal was also short term, 2 years. In other words, it wasn’t going to be too difficult to move on if things didn’t work out.

I suspect the Flames and Sutter were in contact with one another for some time before he accepted the job. This would explain the 3 week period after the season where there was nothing coming from the Flames regarding Wards situation, or what direction they were going to go in. They were in discussions with Sutter.

It’s not baffling at all knowing what we know now. The Flames wanted to hire Sutter. Sutter wasn’t willing to commit likely due to a number of factors; he had previously retired, we’re in the middle of a pandemic, and family considerations. Sounds harsh, but Ward was likely a lame duck coach since he inherited the job. The Flames/Treliving knew who their guy was, they were just going to half to be patient.

All we really know is that they had past discussions. We don't know when exactly.

I don't think it was the pandemic. Sutter said a big reason why he wasn't interested when they last talked is because the team the way it was didn't excite him. I think when he said that he was mostly referring to lack of a legit starting goalie.

I think instead of committing to Ward had Treliving waited another 2-3 weeks or if they were in discussions told Sutter his intentions and came to a pending agreement it could have got done.

Either way deciding to go with Ward was a huge mistake and should have been his last chance to keep his job but we'll see what happens.

[cannon7]

There isn't even really a point to keeping Treliving. It's just a waste of what should be a rebuilding year.

This franchise doesn't have the horses to get to the playoffs, let alone contend there.

What possible move could Treliving make? What possible UFA could he sign that would make a difference? Realistically: none.

The way out of this mess is through a rebuild. Sooner it starts the better.

[TheChief]

The only thing I can say I have loved about Trees tenure is his ability to find players in the later rounds of the draft ( and for the most part hit on his high picks). Before him we went through years and years of bad drafting. If anything will save his job this will be it.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Regarding Hartley, it has also been discussed fairly openly that the players didn’t want him back.

Yeah, and thus was set the culture of player accountability

“Not feeling this coach, boys? I’ll get you a new one”

But the point of that was “taken the team as far as he could”

That’s Brad now

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by TheChief

Brad has had his run in the sun, for 7 years. Outside the one western conference regular season winning season this team hasn't improved. Its time for a change and everyone knows it.

This seems to be the popular sentiment out there, but is this years on ice performance because the team is poorly constructed, or have the player’s underperformed and not met expectations? For me, it’s more the latter than the former.

Is it a flawlessly built team? No. Did at least half of your team fail to play to their potential? At least half, I would say. So the question is why? I would want to know that first before making any franchise altering decisions. Are guys hurt? Are there things happening away from the rink? If so, is there a way to fix that?

Bare in mind, all but maybe a handful of hockey journalists, insiders, bloggers, podcasters etc had the flames missing the playoffs as far as I recall. This has been a lost season, in more ways than one. But the silver lining is that if there was any lingering thought that this team just needs a tweak or a break, that should be clearly dismissed now. Change, significant change, has to happen.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Inferno

All we really know is that they had past discussions. We don't know when exactly.

I don't think it was the pandemic. Sutter said a big reason why he wasn't interested when they last talked is because the team the way it was didn't excite him. I think when he said that he was mostly referring to lack of a legit starting goalie.

I think instead of committing to Ward had Treliving waited another 2-3 weeks or if they were in discussions told Sutter his intentions and came to a pending agreement it could have got done.

Either way deciding to go with Ward was a huge mistake and should have been his last chance to keep his job but we'll see what happens.

If he did say this, I must have missed it. Personally I would be surprised. Basically, ‘Markstrom’s good, but the rest of you kind of suck’. He came out of retirement for that?!?

[flambers]

Originally Posted by TOfan

This seems to be the popular sentiment out there, but is this years on ice performance because the team is poorly constructed, or have the player’s underperformed and not met expectations? For me, it’s more the latter than the former.

Is it a flawlessly built team? No. Did at least half of your team fail to play to their potential? At least half, I would say. So the question is why? I would want to know that first before making any franchise altering decisions. Are guys hurt? Are there things happening away from the rink? If so, is there a way to fix that?

Bare in mind, all but maybe a handful of hockey journalists, insiders, bloggers, podcasters etc had the flames missing the playoffs as far as I recall. This has been a lost season, in more ways than one. But the silver lining is that if there was any lingering thought that this team just needs a tweak or a break, that should be clearly dismissed now. Change, significant change, has to happen.

My opinion the forwards are poorly constructed. They play soft and are way to inconsistent.

Flames for some reason only messed around with the depth players (forwards) last offseason.

Big mistake.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by flambers

My opinion the forwards are poorly constructed. They play soft and are way to inconsistent.

Flames for some reason only messed around with the depth players (forwards) last offseason.

Big mistake.

It’s has been out there that the Flames have had Monahan on the block. You can’t force a trade. Two GM’s need to agree.

Regardless, this offseason should be much more conducive to player movement league wide.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by TOfan

It’s has been out there that the Flames have had Monahan on the block. You can’t force a trade. Two GM’s need to agree.

Regardless, this offseason should be much more conducive to player movement league wide.

Monahan is not the player I would have targeted to be moved.

Johnny is the 1st one to go.

GM has done very little to improve the forwards for awhile now....