getting a little tired of the crack/meth heads

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by curves2000

We need to make sure we are coming at the problem with a multi pronged approached. An approach on BOTH sides of the thinking.

We need to attack homeless issues, mandatory treatment and severe detox and we need to lay down the hammer on the garbage and just be done with it.

We have completely and utterly normalized a million things in Canada and this is a big one. Nobody is batting an eye at random assaults, killings, enraged, drugged out people literally causing MILLION dollar damage claims (Peace Bridge, City Hall fire)

We have a small group of the same losers causing a mountain of problems. I am too lazy to look it up, but there is one female winner who has a rap sheet almost as bad as Putin's and she's always in the news. Murder (downgraded to Manslaughter) non stop violent attacks, thefts, attempting to throw peoples children onto train tracks. Like seriously. Enough with the excuses and her "story" Get her off the streets!

We really need to understand that these problems don't exist in a whole host of large cities to the same degree as they do here. In a lot of countries, drugged out losers raping and bother young girls are just dealt with internally. People don't bat an eye about smashing in some heads.

This is a hockey fan forum, have we forgotten that fear actually works as a deterrent? It even works on large, fit males. Perhaps a return to some brutal but needed tactics is required? I have always been a fan of caning like they do in Singapore. The pain is described as beyond unbearable. The benefit of this is once word get's out, a lot of people really do fall in line. It's human nature

I feel in a lot of ways for these people, I really do to a point. Let's not pretend that it's not our job as a society to improve it and they are in a position to make choices for themselves and their best interest.

seriously. This is how you want to solve the problem with crime? Even petty crime?
I'm too disgusted with your idea to actually sit here and formulate a long response. forget helping people, let's just whip them?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your dream punishment also combined with prison? And isn't it also not given to people over 50 due to the severity of the torture?
Also, if caning is so awesome, why don't they cane women?

[PsYcNeT]

It's definitely been awhile since this forum got the opportunity to put our collective heads together and discuss the best ways to regress as a society.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

It's definitely been awhile since this forum got the opportunity to put our collective heads together and discuss the best ways to regress as a society.

Here's a question: do you think the mentally ill were better off when we had mental institutions, or do you believe it was a positive thing that we shuttered these facilities and left them to be helped (or not) by the community?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I really hate being this guy, but I don't think the severely mentally ill and rock-bottom drug addicts (versus people who just let things get a little out of hand but have the resources and ability to right the ship) are in any shape to be put up in nice buildings without being highly monitored.

This is just like the give a man a fish; teach a man to fish thing. Giving a guy a house won't work...that'll shelter him for a day. We need to help people get to the point of learning how to hang onto and care for a living space before giving them one and that involves getting them able to care for themselves.

It's not really just a physical building these people need. In fact, that is fairly far down on the list IMO. It's like handing the keys to car to somebody who doesn't know how to drive. They'll just fata it up, to be blunt. Then, great, we've spent a bunch of money for a bunch of people to destroy more property knowing full well they're not equipped to handle occupying the space responsibly.

Housing first models appear to work but by work I mean reduce cost to society. Obviously it needs to be a multi-pronged approach.

Essentially we accept that some of the units will be destroyed and abused and taken advantage of in exchange for not trying to select between the people who will be successful and those who don’t.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I really hate being this guy, but I don't think the severely mentally ill and rock-bottom drug addicts (versus people who just let things get a little out of hand but have the resources and ability to right the ship) are in any shape to be put up in nice buildings without being highly monitored.

This is just like the give a man a fish; teach a man to fish thing. Giving a guy a house won't work...that'll shelter him for a day. We need to help people get to the point of learning how to hang onto and care for a living space before giving them one and that involves getting them able to care for themselves.

It's not really just a physical building these people need. In fact, that is fairly far down on the list IMO. It's like handing the keys to car to somebody who doesn't know how to drive. They'll just fata it up, to be blunt. Then, great, we've spent a bunch of money for a bunch of people to destroy more property knowing full well they're not equipped to handle occupying the space responsibly.

I was more thinking for any sort of facility. They will be blank slates, you could have everything from drop in type housing all the way up to furnished apartments, depending on the needs of the person. Some floors of offices for counselling and services, basically a one stop tower. As you get better, you move up and up. Bit of a motivational thing, too I guess.

[Mr.Coffee]

Fear is absolutely a deterrent and to think otherwise runs counter to everything science suggests about what motivates human beings. You need carrots and sticks. Not just one or the other.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Here's a question: do you think the mentally ill were better off when we had mental institutions, or do you believe it was a positive thing that we shuttered these facilities and left them to be helped (or not) by the community?

I don’t know jack #### about this. But I also want a hand held explanation as to why we can re-use these ####ing humongous facilities. There are so many in Ontario for example. Obviously the old days of experiments and torture were ####ing horrific, and that can’t be repeated. But, we know more now. Why can’t they be serviceable, with more oversight? Besides money. Because no matter what we do or don’t do this is costing a fortune.

[Cowboy89]

Why do we have to yield away all our public spaces until the problems are all fully solved? Lost in the conversation is that this behavior in of itself at transit stops, public parks, streets. etc. is unacceptable, wholly detrimental to society and has a multiplier of negative externalities beyond the people who are addicted, homeless, and mentally ill partaking in this behavior. Why can't we treat the symptoms of these problems as well? The bystander public on the receiving end of random beatings, muggings, theft, intimidation, etc. are also victims.

Probably because many don't like the inevitable answer that any effective solution will require people to be detained in some fashion and removed from these places when conducting this behavior whether that be the police, mental health personnel, addictions treatment personnel . . . whoever. There's no end game solution to these problems that don't have this level of intervention at the very end of the flow chart regardless of how many offshoots and steps we take between.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Why do we have to yield away all our public spaces until the problems are all fully solved? Lost in the conversation is that this behavior in of itself at transit stops, public parks, streets. etc. is unacceptable, wholly detrimental to society and has a multiplier of negative externalities beyond the people who are addicted, homeless, and mentally ill partaking in this behavior. Why can't we treat the symptoms of these problems as well? The bystander public on the receiving end of random beatings, muggings, theft, intimidation, etc. are also victims.

Probably because many don't like the inevitable answer that any effective solution will require people to be detained in some fashion and removed from these places when conducting this behavior whether that be the police, mental health personnel, addictions treatment personnel . . . whoever. There's no end game solution to these problems that don't have this level of intervention at the very end of the flow chart regardless of how many offshoots and steps we take between.

Part of the issue is that these instances of disruption, violence and crime disproportionately affect people in low income areas. This gives policy makers very little incentive to actually solve the problems. Just so long as they keep the vagrants out of the high income neighborhoods.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Why do we have to yield away all our public spaces until the problems are all fully solved? Lost in the conversation is that this behavior in of itself at transit stops, public parks, streets. etc. is unacceptable, wholly detrimental to society and has a multiplier of negative externalities beyond the people who are addicted, homeless, and mentally ill partaking in this behavior. Why can't we treat the symptoms of these problems as well? The bystander public on the receiving end of random beatings, muggings, theft, intimidation, etc. are also victims.

Probably because many don't like the inevitable answer that any effective solution will require people to be detained in some fashion and removed from these places when conducting this behavior whether that be the police, mental health personnel, addictions treatment personnel . . . whoever. There's no end game solution to these problems that don't have this level of intervention at the very end of the flow chart regardless of how many offshoots and steps we take between.

What are you talking about “lost in the conversation” and “many won’t like the answer”? What you’re mentioning is literally half of the conversation that has been had so far.

[Wormius]

What is with the hyperbole? Yielded all of our public spaces? Is this being stated with a straight face by anybody that has gone out in public? No homeless or drug addicts are blocking your ability to use the Ctrain or go skating at Olympic Plaza or walk in the +15.

[TheIronMaiden]

Opiate addiction is an old problem. You can find some very interesting searches in Peels Prairie Province about opium.


Have we thought about this solution presented in the Moose Jaw Herald Times, December 11, 1891

Spoiler!

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Wormius

What is with the hyperbole? Yielded all of our public spaces? Is this being stated with a straight face by anybody that has gone out in public? No homeless or drug addicts are blocking your ability to use the Ctrain or go skating at Olympic Plaza or walk in the +15.

Well then I guess that component of it isn’t a problem and all those things Sliver outlined in the OP and the stuff in that CBC article about Calgary Transit and what’s been outlined throughout this thread are all acceptable and just part of the rich tapestry of urban life.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What are you talking about “lost in the conversation” and “many won’t like the answer”? What you’re mentioning is literally half of the conversation that has been had so far.

I read what he meant was “the conversation” as in broad public policy discussions or talking heads on tv / general societal consensus not “the conversation” just in this thread.

My interpretation anyway.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Opiate addiction is an old problem. You can find some very interesting searches in Peels Prairie Province about opium.


Have we thought about this solution presented in the Moose Jaw Herald Times, December 11, 1891

Spoiler!

The solution is borderline illegible newsprint everyone!

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by nik-

The solution is borderline illegible newsprint everyone!

Sorry 132 year old word searchable news papers that are available free to everyone don't come in 4K.

[Yeah_Baby]

I simply would decrim drugs, expand safe use sites, and actually invest in social housing. Housing is huge and no one generally talks about it when it impacts so many other issues such as health care.


as to the incendiary OP, the fact that 'i was okay when people were contained to the core' is a really strong inditement. It's not about addressing the social problems of Capitalism, it's about pushing it back undergroudn and out of sight. And IMO that's pretty disgusting.

A little compassion, and letting that inform policy, goes a long way.

[Mr.Coffee]

I said it in the Vancouver thread like 6 times and it’s already been mentioned here but the solution, as we wring our hands and bemoan “why is there no solution to this?!” Is just, like, ####ing go do what the one jurisdiction that has fixed the problem or shown huge improvement has done.

We have literally an example of a solution. And yet, we all look at each other wondering what to do. It’s like standing in a burning house and one guy just opens a door and walks out and we’re like BUT WHAT DO WE DOOOOOO?

Just go ####ing do what Portugal did. Simple.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Fear is absolutely a deterrent and to think otherwise runs counter to everything science suggests about what motivates human beings. You need carrots and sticks. Not just one or the other.

This is only true for people in a cognitively rational state with something to lose. One or both of those elements tend to be missing with the population being discussed.

Draconian punishments would be a great way to push people on the precipice into the abyss, though.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Part of the issue is that these instances of disruption, violence and crime disproportionately affect people in low income areas. This gives policy makers very little incentive to actually solve the problems. Just so long as they keep the vagrants out of the high income neighborhoods.

This statement from the first post is a good reflection of that

It was one thing when they just sort of stuck to the inner city, which worked for me, but now they're spreading into the good end of town and it's very annoying and off-putting.

The problem has been there, and people have been in need of help, but there hasn't really been a strong public demand for the problem to be solved and for adequate help to be offered.

Bill Bumface said it pretty well

Our approach is lazy, and pretends to be out of compassion. .... There's nothing compassionate about it, we're failing these people. It takes real coordinated effort to help them, ....

Fake compassion that feels good basically because it's keeping people with problems out of sight and their problems out of mind for most people most of the time.

People in these situations seem to be treated as outside of society rather than part of society, and as long as they stay outside of society their deaths and suffering are easily ignored and are not seen as a problem of the broader community. At least that's how I see it generally being viewed by people.