US police kills twice as many people as reported

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

This was a 'special' division in Memphis meant to be proactively stopping crime, so they were predisposed to treating everyone as a criminal imo. It's likely that they probably did get away with some incidents of police brutality, but because the victim didn't get put in the hospital no one cared.

Cool. So like the movie Minority Report, but without clairvoyance?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah. Sadly, I think this is accurate. They dont care because they've probably done this a lot without even getting so much as a slap on the hands much less a "You're off the Force McGarnagle."



Well...thats Calgary, I recall there being a giant ruckus caused in the US when the Police Department issued an order requiring Police Stations to remove 'Think Blue Line' stickers that were on their front doors.

Whats worse? The fact that the Police resisted removing them from the entrance to a Police Station or the fact that they were even there in the first place?

Look, I personally don’t care to wear a thin blue line patch or anything like that a) because it’s unnecessary and b) it offends some people. But since I started 20 years ago, I always understood the phrase “thin blue line” as the only thing protecting good people from bad. It was never about covering for someone else etc. That’s just my experience though, obviously it’s been taken to a different level in other places.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What an embarrassment that a small minority of Calgary Police Officers continued to wear that patch after the complaints, until they were forced to remove them.

Its even worse. The city folded. They can wear pins now "because they carry a different message".

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/cps-allow...sage-1.6239175

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Look, I personally don’t care to wear a thin blue line patch or anything like that a) because it’s unnecessary and b) it offends some people. But since I started 20 years ago, I always understood the phrase “thin blue line” as the only thing protecting good people from bad. It was never about covering for someone else etc. That’s just my experience though, obviously it’s been taken to a different level in other places.

For some people, a swastika is a symbol of protection, but for most people in the western world, it brings up other images. Someone refusing to take it down is a little ton def or initially trying to make a point.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

For some people, a swastika is a symbol of protection, but for most people in the western world, it brings up other images. Someone refusing to take it down is a little ton def or initially trying to make a point.

This is the thing. The whole 'blue line' debate is a thing that's recent, most folks involved in the debate can't even agree if it's good or bad, and the majority of the population doesn't give a fata.

Most of the people in the western world would recognize a swastika and could tell you the same meaning behind it. But if you ask them about the thin blue line, IF they could tell you anything about it, you would get 10 different meanings 5 good and 5 bad. The thin blue line isn't nearly as cut and dry as a swastika.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

This is the thing. The whole 'blue line' debate is a thing that's recent, most folks involved in the debate can't even agree if it's good or bad, and the majority of the population doesn't give a fata.

Most of the people in the western world would recognize a swastika and could tell you the same meaning behind it. But if you ask them about the thin blue line, IF they could tell you anything about it, you would get 10 different meanings 5 good and 5 bad. The thin blue line isn't nearly as cut and dry as a swastika.

With the rise in white supremacy in the USA and Canada, I’m not so sure the swastika is cut and dried either anymore.

In fact, many of the same people who support one, probably support the other. White Christian conservatives who dislike minorities and believe in law and order.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

This is the thing. The whole 'blue line' debate is a thing that's recent, most folks involved in the debate can't even agree if it's good or bad, and the majority of the population doesn't give a fata.

Most of the people in the western world would recognize a swastika and could tell you the same meaning behind it. But if you ask them about the thin blue line, IF they could tell you anything about it, you would get 10 different meanings 5 good and 5 bad. The thin blue line isn't nearly as cut and dry as a swastika.

Yeah, I had no idea why thin blue line was all of a sudden a bad thing after it being fine my entire life. I even asked on CP a year or two ago. Things can have different meaning to different people, so even though I understand the explanations from people about why it's not a good thing anymore, I don't agree with the people that act like anyone wearing it has that same definition of it and therefore is wearing it just to offend you. My personal interpretation is that it seems like a silly thing to get up in arms about, so to me it still seems like some acab nonsense.

I'd say the Swastika is also much historically clearer on what it is and what people will interpret from it. Thin Blue Line? That wasn't a bad thing until just a few years ago, I don't hold it against someone.

Edit: On the Swastika example, that reminds me. Years ago I had a Hindu neighbor that had some vandalism on his house because of a hindu swastika. Some would call him tone deaf or ignorant for having it in the first place, and I don't necessarily think they'd be wrong to say that, but I personally never thought twice because I knew who he was and what it meant. Now if it had an iron eagle sticker next to it, very different story indeed.

[afc wimbledon]

the thin blue line thing became a problem when it became a cover for an attitude 'we are all that stands between you and the barbarians at the gate, therefore you should never question what we do, any and all ends are justified'

There is no 'us and them' all cops are there to serve all of us, even the few bad guys, we are all 'us', cops, criminals and law abiding citizens, we are all in the same boat

[btimbit]

To me it just seems like a stretch to take a simple morale booster and turn it into "We can do whatever we want!"

BUT, I will say, that if I was a cop seeing all that's happening in recent years, I would immediately just say "Alright, we'll get rid of it, no problem" so I definitely agree with the assessment that CPS putting up a fight about it seems incredibly obtuse.

[FlamesAddiction]

The thin blue line thing always seemed to me like a counter protest or rally cry for police after they are caught doing bad things. Kind of like people saying "all lives matter" at a BLM demonstration. Just tone deaf and completely missing the point.

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The thin blue line thing always seemed to me like a counter protest or rally cry for police after they are caught doing bad things. Kind of like people saying "all lives matter" at a BLM demonstration. Just tone deaf and completely missing the point.

I think the point I realized it was being used by cops in this manor was with the CPS officer who smashed that black womans head open in APU and showed up to court in a thin blue line scarf to cover his face.

Your not supposed to be masked vigilantes like Batman. Your there to ensure social order and uphold the law, including amongst yourselves. Having an us versus them attitude is something that needs to be stamped out.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Look, I personally don’t care to wear a thin blue line patch or anything like that a) because it’s unnecessary and b) it offends some people. But since I started 20 years ago, I always understood the phrase “thin blue line” as the only thing protecting good people from bad. It was never about covering for someone else etc. That’s just my experience though, obviously it’s been taken to a different level in other places.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the thin blue line thing became a problem when it became a cover for an attitude 'we are all that stands between you and the barbarians at the gate, therefore you should never question what we do, any and all ends are justified'

There is no 'us and them' all cops are there to serve all of us, even the few bad guys, we are all 'us', cops, criminals and law abiding citizens, we are all in the same boat

Originally Posted by Flaming Homer

I think the point I realized it was being used by cops in this manor was with the CPS officer who smashed that black womans head open in APU and showed up to court in a thin blue line scarf to cover his face.

Your not supposed to be masked vigilantes like Batman. Your there to ensure social order and uphold the law, including amongst yourselves. Having an us versus them attitude is something that needs to be stamped out.

It would be interesting to know when this shift really became pervasive.

I understand exactly what Zulu29 is saying and in a way I do empathize with some Officers who started off believing exactly that until slogan was usurped.

There should be no 'Us vs. Them.'

They are Us and we are They. Police and Civilians alike, because there should be no division. Its not as though no Police Officer has ever broken the law...thus making them a criminal?

There isnt supposed to be any line of division at all.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Look, I personally don’t care to wear a thin blue line patch or anything like that a) because it’s unnecessary and b) it offends some people. But since I started 20 years ago, I always understood the phrase “thin blue line” as the only thing protecting good people from bad. It was never about covering for someone else etc. That’s just my experience though, obviously it’s been taken to a different level in other places.

By the way, I appreciate your perspective in the discussion.

Because thats a large element of the problem surrounding the 'Thin Blue Line' issue, its perceived as different things by different people.

If you'd asked me 10 years ago what I thought of it my answer would be very different than the Locke who saw the actions of Police especially in the US from 2020 to now.

Its been a monumental couple years for Policing in North America. And the shift has not been good.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

For some people, a swastika is a symbol of protection, but for most people in the western world, it brings up other images. Someone refusing to take it down is a little ton def or initially trying to make a point.

I think comparing the swastika and blue line patch is quite an exaggeration. One was the symbol foisted by an evil dictator who sought global domination and a master race and was adopted by an entire nation as a rallying cry. The blue line patch is accepted by some in law enforcement and at best, there has been loose associations to white supremacy (which I’ve yet to see any direct evidence to suggest same) or a “code of silence” similar to omertà.

I do not personally agree with the thin blue line patch. I don’t need a patch to remind me that my job is to protect those that can’t protect themselves or that there are only a few of people such as myself doing the job. Plus, it’s obvious it triggers some people and quite frankly, if I can make someone more at ease to speak with me if I’m not wearing some gaudy patch then that’s a small sacrifice I’m more than happy to make.

But to speak to the topic at hand, I’m quite frankly horrified at that poor kid getting beaten to death. Watching those videos shows to me that a) US police have substandard defensive tactics and are far too quick to use intervention options and b) they acted like a pack of rabid dogs on a piece of raw meat instead of a coordinated group whose goal was to quickly restrain and arrest an individual. I’m just at a loss for words and hate that their actions will no doubt affect the general public’s perception of me, simply because I shared a profession with them. I wish peace to his family and hope they are able to find Justice.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the thin blue line thing became a problem when it became a cover for an attitude 'we are all that stands between you and the barbarians at the gate, therefore you should never question what we do, any and all ends are justified'

There is no 'us and them' all cops are there to serve all of us, even the few bad guys, we are all 'us', cops, criminals and law abiding citizens, we are all in the same boat

Sorry to hijack the thread here but just to your point of “we are all that stands between you etc”, there is some truth to the first part where the public expects me to stand between them and those that would steal from them or harm them and I’m good with that. I’m also good with people questioning why I did what I did or to question the methods I used. That’s the rub. No one should become a police officer with the expectations of being lauded or appreciated. We are a necessary evil, we have to do our duty and we have to expect we’ll be scrutinized. End of story.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Locke

By the way, I appreciate your perspective in the discussion.

Because thats a large element of the problem surrounding the 'Thin Blue Line' issue, its perceived as different things by different people.

If you'd asked me 10 years ago what I thought of it my answer would be very different than the Locke who saw the actions of Police especially in the US from 2020 to now.

Its been a monumental couple years for Policing in North America. And the shift has not been good.

I don't see it that way at all. 10 years ago, they all held the line with no exception. Somewhere around George Floyd is where there first breaks in the ranks and they were finally held accountable. Now in Tyre Nichols case, they swiftly moved to fire and charge them and with union support.

Your perspective is your perspective, but I think the actual shift has been towards accountability.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I don't see it that way at all. 10 years ago, they all held the line with no exception. Somewhere around George Floyd is where there first breaks in the ranks and they were finally held accountable. Now in Tyre Nichols case, they swiftly moved to fire and charge them and with union support.

Your perspective is your perspective, but I think the actual shift has been towards accountability.

I don't fully agree. The move was fast in this case but how about in Canada where police officers are suspended with pay, pending investigation. Guys accused of doing some nasty things get suspended with pay, sometimes for months if not years, and even if found guilty don't have to pay that salary back. Their unions in Canada, or at least Toronto are super strong and strongarm the government.


As for the thin blue line, in recent months I've found the same people who post that every time an officer is killed or injured in the line of duty, will never post about this type of thing going on. With Officers, they tend to think they're targetted on the daily, when that's the farthest thing from the truth. How many officers die in Canada each year? Truly how bad and dangerous are the situations they're in. So many of them are power tripped a**holes. When they're paid $64/hour in OT pay to watch over manholes in Toronto, people get annoyed. There's just something so wrong with their brotherhood.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Sorry to hijack the thread here but just to your point of “we are all that stands between you etc”, there is some truth to the first part where the public expects me to stand between them and those that would steal from them or harm them and I’m good with that. I’m also good with people questioning why I did what I did or to question the methods I used. That’s the rub. No one should become a police officer with the expectations of being lauded or appreciated. We are a necessary evil, we have to do our duty and we have to expect we’ll be scrutinized. End of story.

The problem with this line of thought is you have no way of knowing who is a bad guy and who is just a native/black/Irish/ kid but it is human nature to take short cuts so all black/native/irish kids tend to become the bad guys which leads to Starlight rides, beating deaths and the Birmingham 8.

The police seem to exist in a weird world where they spend most of their time dealing with the most vulnerable of our society without having any insight or knowledge about them what so ever (and I do believe this is on some level a purposeful choice towards ignorance to make the job morally or emotionally easier), I can remember trying to explain to an anti prostitution task force that were sent to the jail I worked out of why they were having no luck getting co operation from the girls when they wanted to 'bust their scumbag pimps' as the cops put it, they had no idea that most of the girls 'pimps' really were their boyfriends, that the girls cared for them and visa versa, that the guys did some dealing and B&E's, the girls worked the stroll, they pooled their money and survived that way.
The anti prostitution task force seemed to have no clue about the actual lives of prostitutes, they seemed to see everything in an utterly black and white manner, they desperately needed a bad guy to hunt down, the idea that everyone involved (except maybe the regular citizen who bought the girls) was also a victim seemed impossible for them to comprehend

[Just a guy]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The problem with this line of thought is you have no way of knowing who is a bad guy and who is just a native/black/Irish/ kid but it is human nature to take short cuts so all black/native/irish kids tend to become the bad guys which leads to Starlight rides, beating deaths and the Birmingham 8.

The police seem to exist in a weird world where they spend most of their time dealing with the most vulnerable of our society without having any insight or knowledge about them what so ever (and I do believe this is on some level a purposeful choice towards ignorance to make the job morally or emotionally easier), I can remember trying to explain to an anti prostitution task force that were sent to the jail I worked out of why they were having no luck getting co operation from the girls when they wanted to 'bust their scumbag pimps' as the cops put it, they had no idea that most of the girls 'pimps' really were their boyfriends, that the girls cared for them and visa versa, that the guys did some dealing and B&E's, the girls worked the stroll, they pooled their money and survived that way.
The anti prostitution task force seemed to have no clue about the actual lives of prostitutes, they seemed to see everything in an utterly black and white manner, they desperately needed a bad guy to hunt down, the idea that everyone involved (except maybe the regular citizen who bought the girls) was also a victim seemed impossible for them to comprehend

Couple of points
I would hate to live in a world without police. Look around the world for examples of how society degenerates where there is little to no policing or totally corrupt police.

I have spoken with several police, some in my family. They deal with every situation. They don't have the option to say no. Most everyone on this board does not go into work with a reasonable likelihood that they will be in a physical fight at work.

I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between on this subject. Are there bad cops? Yes. Are they the majority? No. Does their job require physicality? Yes. The truth likely lies where you draw the line and every situation is different. It takes a judgement call that most here will never have to take.

Deal with the obviously bad ones, work with the mistakes and appreciate that someone stands up for us at any hour.

My thoughts

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The problem with this line of thought is you have no way of knowing who is a bad guy and who is just a native/black/Irish/ kid but it is human nature to take short cuts so all black/native/irish kids tend to become the bad guys which leads to Starlight rides, beating deaths and the Birmingham 8.

The police seem to exist in a weird world where they spend most of their time dealing with the most vulnerable of our society without having any insight or knowledge about them what so ever (and I do believe this is on some level a purposeful choice towards ignorance to make the job morally or emotionally easier), I can remember trying to explain to an anti prostitution task force that were sent to the jail I worked out of why they were having no luck getting co operation from the girls when they wanted to 'bust their scumbag pimps' as the cops put it, they had no idea that most of the girls 'pimps' really were their boyfriends, that the girls cared for them and visa versa, that the guys did some dealing and B&E's, the girls worked the stroll, they pooled their money and survived that way.
The anti prostitution task force seemed to have no clue about the actual lives of prostitutes, they seemed to see everything in an utterly black and white manner, they desperately needed a bad guy to hunt down, the idea that everyone involved (except maybe the regular citizen who bought the girls) was also a victim seemed impossible for them to comprehend

I’d love to have a few pints with you to discuss the above because writing a post will just result in a wall of text. All I’ll say is this, in my 20 years of service I’ve seen policing advance beyond my wildest dreams. When i started we arrested people for possessing a joint, now as of Jan 31 people can possess 2.5 grams of whatever they want. Prostitution has evolved from pimps and hookers to sophisticated human trafficking organizations. People with mental health issues used to just spend the day or night in cells, now they’re being linked up with community outreach, case workers or mental health professionals at hospitals. I dunno, the way I see it is police are often trying to play catch up to the newest methods or studies and adapt to them. From my experience, most police officers truly just want to keep good people from being harmed and bring people accused of crime to some semblance of Justice. We tend to go with the flow. But I will also say this, we HATE crooked cops, we HATE cops that do things to make us look bad, I can tell you that the majority of cops will say something along the lines of , “he might be a friend of mine, but he’s not worth losing my job over or if he ever puts me in a bad spot, that’s on him”.