Personal Experience with COVID?

[opendoor]

Ultimately it comes down to risk reduction. For any immunologically naive person, the first 2 doses were a no brainer for basically every adult age group. For a person with no exposure to COVID, every single side known side effect from vaccination is significantly more prevalent after an infection, never mind the direct risk from an infection.

But once you have exposure to the virus (either through vaccination or infection) then the marginal risk reduction gets smaller and smaller, reducing the marginal benefit of each subsequent dose. So based on current evidence, there's not a whole lot of reason for younger, healthier people to continue to get vaccinated because they're generally well protected against severe disease.

I think most European health authorities have handled this better, where they focus on 50+ or 60+ year olds and younger people who are at risk, as those people absolutely should be getting vaccinated somewhat regularly (unless they've had an infection in the interim). The only issue I take with some European countries' approach is that they don't even really make it available for younger people who don't have comorbidities, I think if someone wants to get their kids vaccinated/boosted or a younger person wants to get boosters every 6 months, they should absolutely be allowed to do that.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Nyah

This isn't really being recorded or diagnosed, though. When I asked my doctor about my heart issues directly post vaccine, she say maybe, maybe not. It wasn't documented or submitted as a statistic, even as a plausibility. Same with Pylon. We don't have any way of knowing how many people are seeing effects like this from the vaccine at this point because (at lease here) it's not recorded data.

I realize that anecdotal evidence is in no way a sure study, but I know exactly zero people who have experienced cardiac related effects after getting Covid, and almost everyone I know has had it at least once. Thanks to this forum, I now know of three people who have had cardiac issues (myself included) directly after a vaccine. Until they start really collecting data, the bolded above is really just speculation.

That's not true, it's been pretty well known for awhile now:

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/0...-than-vaccines

In this systematic review and meta-analysis, we found that the risk of incident myocarditis is more than seven times higher in persons who were infected with the SARS-CoV-2 than in those who received the COVID-19 vaccines. These findings support the continued use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines among all eligible persons per the CDC and WHO recommendations.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...22.951314/full

[Nyah]

A-fib and arrhythmia aren't myocarditis. Myocarditis can definitely increase your chances of both, but they can occur on their own without it.

It's absolutely possible that covid can increase your chances of cardiovascular issues (even obvious from the studies you're sharing), and maybe for some people having covid and then getting a vaccine is the thing that triggers it. But I didn't have covid before my booster that set things off, and neither did Pylon. Again, anecdotal, but still valid.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Nyah

This isn't really being recorded or diagnosed, though. When I asked my doctor about my heart issues directly post vaccine, she say maybe, maybe not. It wasn't documented or submitted as a statistic, even as a plausibility. Same with Pylon. We don't have any way of knowing how many people are seeing effects like this from the vaccine at this point because (at lease here) it's not recorded data.

I realize that anecdotal evidence is in no way a sure study, but I know exactly zero people who have experienced cardiac related effects after getting Covid, and almost everyone I know has had it at least once. Thanks to this forum, I now know of three people who have had cardiac issues (myself included) directly after a vaccine. Until they start really collecting data, the bolded above is really just speculation.

Health authorities around the world constantly monitor population-level data to detect safety signals. A doctor can't tell you conclusively whether your specific case is related to vaccination because they don't know. But if there is a statistically significant uptick in diagnoses of anything and it's happening in one group (vaccinated vs unvaccinated, certain brand of vaccine vs. another, etc.) inordinately, then it will show up as a safety signal. That's how they found out about VITT from the AZ vaccine and myocarditis/pericarditis from mRNA vaccines. It's not like a doctor diagnosed someone with myocarditis and then determined it was vaccine caused; health authorities saw that the incidence of these conditions was above the background-level and that they were correlated with age and vaccination status, so it generated a safety signal.

And what public data is available suggests that vaccination still reduces risk even with any side effects. In the UK for instance, the age-adjusted demographic that is seeing the lowest all-cause mortality rate is the one with the most doses (and the most recent doses). If vaccine doses were causing severe side effects in any great numbers, you would expect their mortality to be higher than people with fewer (or no) doses given that virtually 100% of the population has some prior exposure to COVID, but it's the opposite.

And taken further, it suggests that COVID or long-term complications from it are likely responsible for excess deaths that still exist, because the group with the best protection against it are the ones with the lowest all-cause mortality rate. And that's despite the fact that people with more doses will tend to be more vulnerable than those with fewer in a given age group. All other things being equal (i.e. if COVID or the vaccine had zero impact on mortality rates) you would expect the group with more doses to have a higher mortality rate.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Nyah

A-fib and arrhythmia aren't myocarditis. Myocarditis can definitely increase your chances of both, but they can occur on their own without it.

It's absolutely possible that covid can increase your chances of cardiovascular issues (even obvious from the studies you're sharing), and maybe for some people having covid and then getting a vaccine is the thing that triggers it. But I didn't have covid before my booster that set things off, and neither did Pylon. Again, anecdotal, but still valid.

That's why I said "other heart issues". Maybe re-read my post, I think you missed the thread of conversation...

[Nyah]

To be clear: I'm not saying that the vaccine is worse than covid. It's obvious that's not the case. And I understand that these studies are ongoing, and to be honest I didn't realize that they use correlations such as diagnoses of things in certain populations. I'd still get both first doses of Pfizer again if I could do it all over again.

I'm pointing out that we probably don't yet have an accurate understanding on exactly how the vaccine (especially with boosters) effects the body, especially in the long term. I just got my diagnosis, and my first incident happened in December 2021.

[Knut]

I think it is at the point where if you are under 50 and healthy there should be no stigma around not getting it. I think we will find a higher than acceptable risk profile for the shot BASED completely on the current variants. Keeping in mind the virus can change to change the formula again.

When all of you got the shot (and had the side effects that are bad) the Virus was the delta variant and much much more severe. It is really hard to apply the lens of today's virus to back then.

Personally, I am getting the booster every fall. I have tolerated it well and I deal with high risk patients at work. The Pfizer Bivalent does seem to reduce the risk of transmission by 20-40%. Also, I dont want to get too sick from it.

Dion.... you really should be getting the shot.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Locke

In some people's minds if you're not first in line for the next available booster you might as well grab a Nazi flag and drive to Ottawa..

That's not a real thing though

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Also, big shout out to pylon's dude-bro science approach.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I hope that thinking isn't driving your medical decisions, because it displays a real ignorance of how the immune system works. You're far more likely to end up with complications (potentially severe ones) if you avoid standard treatment regimens in a futile attempt to "keep your immune system strong".

Not ignorant at all. Antibiotics resistance is a real thing, and they are vastly over prescribed. And you are far more likely to truly require them in old age or after a major surgery. And I would like them to be at their best effectiveness when I am an old fart and they are truly required.

https://www.cdc.gov/patientsafety/fe...ics-aware.html

Unless I end up in a life or death situation, I will ride out an illness and just take Advil or Tylenol to alleviate pain or discomfort. Albeit in the last 30 years since I've been making my own medical decisions, only twice has a doctor recommended antibiotics.

When I had my wisdom teeth removed was one scenario. I asked

"Is this necessary? Do I have an infection?"

"No you don't. But I recommend it."

"Ok, but is it standard practice?"

"Again, all dentists are different, however I recommend it."

"If a problem pops up, let's talk about it then. In the meantime, I will pass, thank you."

And very casual internet searching will tell you, there is no right or wrong answer to this question, and it is entirely up to the dentist. Low and behold, I healed up just fine and infection free without their use.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

There is no certainty that getting covid wouldn't have given you Afib:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462635/

Those are much much higher odds than the potential vaccine induced Afib I linked earlier. And the vaccine may have prevented you getting covid, combined with Afib. So I don't really think avoiding the vaccine would have led to better outcomes for you.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you search for it there are several newer studies showing similar things. I guess it shouldn't be a surprise, since it is known covid causes other heart related disorders(at much greater occurrence than vaccine induced ones).

If you read further down in your shared article it claims that based on potentially more reliable data and studies that new onset AFib varied from 3.6% to 6.7% of Covid patients.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Antibiotics aren't over-prescipred anymore, they certainly used to be. Any GP worth their salt have reigned in their usage. They're still given when needed. open-door might've be referring to the training up your immune system. Which is nonsense of course.

You admit to being so fiercely pro covid19 vaccine that you lost friends over it. You seem to just be an extreme person.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by pylon

Not ignorant at all. Antibiotics resistance is a real thing, and they are vastly over prescribed. And you are far more likely to truly require them in old age or after a major surgery. And I would like them to be at their best effectiveness when I am an old fart and they are truly required.

Antibiotic resistance means the bacteria becomes antibiotic resistant, not that you do. You abstaining from using them will have zero impact on how effective they are for you down the road. Nor does it have anything to do with the effectiveness of your immune system.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

There is no certainty that getting covid wouldn't have given you Afib:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7462635/

Those are much much higher odds than the potential vaccine induced Afib I linked earlier. And the vaccine may have prevented you getting covid, combined with Afib. So I don't really think avoiding the vaccine would have led to better outcomes for you.

Not trying to be argumentative LOL, but had I locked myself away in my house and avoided both the virus AND the vaccine, likely none of this happens. And I certainly could have pulled that off had I known this was the outcome.

Or the AFib has nothing to do with either.

Or I had the virus asymptomatically and that caused the AFib and somehow the shots agitated it.....

There is no knowing for certain, and that's part of the frustration. However, the bulk of my frustration, if anyone has read the posts I made, is the absolute dismissive attitude of the professionals that walked us down the vaccine path, now that I am concerned it may have caused an issue. That's what I'm pissed about.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Antibiotic resistance means the bacteria becomes antibiotic resistant, not that you do. You abstaining from using them will have zero impact on how effective they are for you down the road. Nor does it have anything to do with the effectiveness of your immune system.

And there you go, I did not realize that. I'm a car expert, not a medical expert.

So let me just change the narrative. I am not taking antibiotics so I protect society as a whole and so I'm not contributing to global bacterial resistance. I am that much of an altruist.

But thanks for the re-education on the matter. I am off to go guzzle a 55 gallon drum of penicillin.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by pylon

And there you go, I did not realize that. I'm a car expert, not a medical expert.

So let me just change the narrative. I am not taking antibiotics so I protect society as a whole and so I'm not contributing to global bacterial resistance. I am that much of an altruist.

But thanks for the re-education on the matter. I am off to go guzzle a 55 gallon drum of penicillin.

I'm not sure that's how it works. If you complete the course of antibiotics I don't think you create antibiotic resistant strains. It's when you don't complete it(I feel fine, no need to finish the bottle!), and the bacteria come back that can be the problem, as it has been exposed and found work-arounds. That, and extreme over-use in the animal population.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Antibiotics aren't over-prescipred anymore, they certainly used to be. Any GP worth their salt have reigned in their usage. They're still given when needed. open-door might've be referring to the training up your immune system. Which is nonsense of course.

You admit to being so fiercely pro covid19 vaccine that you lost friends over it. You seem to just be an extreme person.

Scope of the problem

Antibiotic resistance is rising to dangerously high levels in all parts of the world. New resistance mechanisms are emerging and spreading globally, threatening our ability to treat common infectious diseases. A growing list of infections – such as pneumonia, tuberculosis, blood poisoning, gonorrhoea, and foodborne diseases – are becoming harder, and sometimes impossible, to treat as antibiotics become less effective.

Where antibiotics can be bought for human or animal use without a prescription, the emergence and spread of resistance is made worse. Similarly, in countries without standard treatment guidelines, antibiotics are often over-prescribed by health workers and veterinarians and over-used by the public.

Without urgent action, we are heading for a post-antibiotic era, in which common infections and minor injuries can once again kill.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...tic-resistance

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not true, it's been pretty well known for awhile now:

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/0...-than-vaccines


https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...22.951314/full

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1002/clc.23965

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/eci.13947

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36602621/

It’s funny when I previously saying booster doses for healthy people were a waste of time that somehow I being labeled an anti-vaxxer by some zealots here.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2215780

[jjgallow]

Originally Posted by Dion

Scope of the problem

Antibiotic resistance is rising to dangerously high levels in all parts of the world. New resistance mechanisms are emerging and spreading globally, threatening our ability to treat common infectious diseases. A growing list of infections – such as pneumonia, tuberculosis, blood poisoning, gonorrhoea, and foodborne diseases – are becoming harder, and sometimes impossible, to treat as antibiotics become less effective.

Where antibiotics can be bought for human or animal use without a prescription, the emergence and spread of resistance is made worse. Similarly, in countries without standard treatment guidelines, antibiotics are often over-prescribed by health workers and veterinarians and over-used by the public.

Without urgent action, we are heading for a post-antibiotic era, in which common infections and minor injuries can once again kill.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...tic-resistance

Not claiming to have all the answers here but we could put a lot more research into antibiotics than we do. Sadly, the funding and commercial viability only happens after things get out of hand.

If we do get to a post-antibiotic Era, I do think science will solve it. But there will be a gap where there is no solution, because we weren't proactive enough.

That sounds a lot like the covid situation too, doesn't it

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by pylon

There is no knowing for certain, and that's part of the frustration. However, the bulk of my frustration, if anyone has read the posts I made, is the absolute dismissive attitude of the professionals that walked us down the vaccine path, now that I am concerned it may have caused an issue. That's what I'm pissed about.

“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so. “ – Mark Twain

There's been a lot of talk about the rejection and lack of respect of expertise through the pandemic and that's certainly been a problem. That said not enough has been made about the limitations of expertise, especially regarding the impacts of a novel virus and a fledgling vaccine on the broad population. That isn't to say a lay person knows any better or has similar practical knowledge (They don't) just that the current science is still emerging and the doctors you saw regarding your symptoms shouldn't be so dismissive.