[PGT] Flames win 4-2 over Panthers

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Regorium

If we iced this lineup from game 1, I would argue that we'd have an extra 4-8 points.

But we didn't, and kept the youth in the AHL for an extra 25 games. I don't see how you attribute keeping them in the AHL for a quarter of the NHL season to the recent success.

Bennett still playing centre at the beginning of the season made icing Jankowski right away difficult. I agree that Stajan holding the 4C spot down is a mistake, so I'll partially give you the 4-8 points edge.

Hathaway and Mangiapane were both brought up because of injuries, so what would you propose we shouldhave done with them to start the year? Rittich played a period of hockey in the NHL last year, so yes I do think that picking up Lack was necessary to give him and Gillies some minutes early on in Stockton.

[Enoch Root]

Yes, the Canucks game was another where I was certain, from start to finish, of the 2 points.

The Barkov line was dangerous all night, but the defensive coverage was keeping things to the outside for the most part. Not saying it was rational to be certain they were winning, just saying that's how I felt.

[Jiri Hrdina]

The most valid criticism would be about Jankowski - as he certainly played well enough to earn a spot in camp. Guys like Hathaway did not. Jankowski's demotion though seemed to be tied to the teams desire to have Sam at centre. Once they became willing to move him to the wing, there was a spot for Janko.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

This really isn't rocket science.

The young players doing well on the team now looked flat in camp. Handing them a spot on the big club when they didn't earn it out of camp could have lead to their confidence suffering and an even slower start.

Instead, the likes of Janko, Hathaway etc started tearing the AHL a new one, were soon called up, and their confidence and momentum carried over to the NHL.

Pretty simple explanation really.

That's fair. We must have watched different preseason games then.

There was no doubt in my mind that Jankowski, Hathaway, Kulak, and Rittich all outplayed their replacements - Glass, F.Hamilton, Bartkowski and Lack.

At least I can see where you are coming from. If you thought the latter 4 players outplayed the former 4, and thus the youth needed additional seasoning in the AHL, I can absolutely accept that because hockey is quite subjective.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Playing Hathaway, Mangiapane and Jankowski (only one of whom I thought earned a spot in camp) from the outset would not have allowed that line to form in the AHL and light it up the way they did. Really, Foo was a bigger expectation to make the NHL than Mangiapane or even Hathaway IMO.

Rittich had played one period in the NHL, and had merely been ok in that one. The NHL game is a lot different for goalies - NHL shooters are way better, the game is a whole lot faster (however the D is a lot more structured). It's so hard to predict a good result from AHL play. The Flames have had several stellar AHL goalies who didn't pan out in the NHL and there's no way that Rittich was "obviously" going to be a great NHL goalie.

As it turns out, the GM's moves have worked quite well. You could argue equally that he gave each callup exactly the right amount of AHL seasoning this year.

I never said Rittich was "obviously" going to be a great NHL goalie. I said he was obviously ready for the NHL backup role. Note that I haven't said anything about Smith, only Lack.

The NHL backup role is a place where you can have a bit of leeway to give a star AHL goalie some time. Mrazek, Gibson and Vasilevsky (for example) have all traveled this path, without their respective GM's getting a stop-gap backup like Lack.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Lack was a very smart pickup, and even though it didn't work out, it still served the Flames perfectly. Another month in Stockton showed that Rittich was in fact ready for a chance.

Sometimes players are brought in simply as fillers until the kids are ready. The fact that the kids eventually take the job away from them doesn't show that they are bad moves.

Lack was not a smart pickup. He put up a 5.29 GAA and .819 SV%. So, not only did he not perform when called upon, but it appeared that the Flames didn't trust him enough to put him in to give Smith the rest the organization would have wanted. (Rittich has roughly 2.5x the minutes played in the team's 22 games that he's been up for vs. Lack and the 22 games that he was the backup for).

Picking up a veteran guy may have been a smart move to hold down the backup spot until the prospects were definitely ready, but Lack wasn't the right veteran. And given his atrocious numbers the last couple of years, that should have been obvious. It appeared to be another example of a "familiarity" based decision that has repeatedly failed.

The Flames made a bad decision in picking up Lack, but they got fortunate that it didn't hurt them too badly as Rittich has proven to be ready.

[GioforPM]

Between Glass and Hathaway in particular, everyone at the time commented on how great Glass performed in camp Andrew how flat Hathaway looked.

And Kulak didn't distinguish himself in camp - it was thought that Andersson and Valimaki were equal or better. But anyway, he made the team. After that it's a coach decision. And how long he sat and Bart was in is really exaggerated in a lot of people's minds (similar to how long Jankowski had to wait). Speaking of Jankowski, he was specifically told by Treliving that he'd made the team and that he just had to wait for a spot to free up. Which came true really quickly, relatively speaking.

Mangiapane wasn't on anyone's "made the team" list out of camp.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I never said Rittich was "obviously" going to be a great NHL goalie. I said he was obviously ready for the NHL backup role. Note that I haven't said anything about Smith, only Lack.

The NHL backup role is a place where you can have a bit of leeway to give a star AHL goalie some time. Mrazek, Gibson and Vasilevsky (for example) have all traveled this path, without their respective GM's getting a stop-gap backup like Lack.

What evidence was there that he was "obviously" ready for a backup role?

Edit: as opposed to, say Ortio, Brossoit, etc, who put up good numbers in the AHL?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Regorium

That's fair. We must have watched different preseason games then.

There was no doubt in my mind that Jankowski, Hathaway, Kulak, and Rittich all outplayed their replacements - Glass, F.Hamilton, Bartkowski and Lack.

I definitely think you're remembering camp to suit this narrative here.

Hathaway and Kulak looked very ordinary and pedestrian in camp. Janko was good but there were several factors (recently mentioned) that lead to him starting in the "A". We also didn't see a lot of Rittich to make that a foregone conclusion as you're suggesting.

Regardless, I think it's pretty evident their hot start in the AHL allowed them to transition with more confidence to the big club. Saying they would have played this well after is purely speculative. As it is, I think the organization made the right call. Treliving talks at length about prospects over-ripening and the patience with these players seems to have paid off.

[Reign of Fire]

Originally Posted by the2bears

LOL, way to make a stand.

I have better things to do with my time than argue with overly sensitive people, that have to make sure everything is politically correct.

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Lack was not a smart pickup. He put up a 5.29 GAA and .819 SV%. So, not only did he not perform when called upon, but it appeared that the Flames didn't trust him enough to put him in to give Smith the rest the organization would have wanted.

Picking up a veteran guy may have been a smart move to hold down the backup spot until the prospects were definitely ready, but Lack wasn't the right veteran. And given his atrocious numbers the last couple of years, that should have been obvious. It appeared to be another example of a "familiarity" based decision that has repeatedly failed.

The Flames made a bad decision in picking up Lack, but they got fortunate that it didn't hurt them too badly as Rittich has proven to be ready.

I definitely can't defend the stats Lack put up, but the veteran acquisition at the time was a move I agreed with. Glad that he was demoted when he was since Rittich is working out so well.

[Enoch Root]

Jankowski, Hathaway, Mangiapane, and Rittich are all playing really well.

To me, that suggests that the organization has handled them well. Concluding that the organization has screwed it up seems somewhat bizarre.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What evidence was there that he was "obviously" ready for a backup role?

His entire season the year prior, where he virtually carried the Heat and showed a high level of polish? Rittich being our NHL backup this year was something I personally felt strongly about.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

His entire season the year prior, where he virtually carried the Heat and showed a high level of polish? Rittich being our NHL backup this year was something I personally felt strongly about.

See Ortio. Great numbers, especially in 2013-14, AHL all-star.

And "carried" the Heat? He pretty much split games with Gillies and, while he had a better save %, had less wins.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Regorium

The NHL backup role is a place where you can have a bit of leeway to give a star AHL goalie some time. Mrazek, Gibson and Vasilevsky (for example) have all traveled this path, without their respective GM's getting a stop-gap backup like Lack.

Before they became established backups:

Detroit had Jonas Gustavsson as a safety net for Mrazek
Anaheim had Jason Labarbera as a safety net for Gibson
TB had Evgeni Nabokov as a safety net for Vasilevsky

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What evidence was there that he was "obviously" ready for a backup role?

Edit: as opposed to, say Ortio, Brossoit, etc, who put up good numbers in the AHL?

The excellent AHL numbers.

I don't understand what more you could ask a prospect to do? You're literally asking them for NHL experience, and saying that you can't be ready unless you've proven yourself in the NHL? And of course, we hire the guy that gives us a 5.29 GAA because he has experience.

I mean, what evidence does anyone have that a prospect can do well in the NHL or not?

Rittich was one of the best goalies in the AHL last year behind a pretty mediocre team. At what point have they shown enough?

For example, Rittich played 6 games this year in the AHL - are you saying that these 6 games have completely changed your mind from being just a AHL prospect to being ready for an NHL backup? Or, was it Lack's failure that we were forced to try Rittich out?

[Enoch Root]

31 games, and only a single season, is simply not enough evidence to be certain that a guy is ready.

ESPECIALLY a goalie.

Plus, being a backup means playing only 15 or 20 games for the year. That alone is a very difficult adjustment.

Getting those 6 games in, down in Stockton, can only have helped him. In fact, it would have been better if Lack could have stretched things out another month and got Rittich more games. But so be it.

[Ryan Coke]

Jankowski was the only one that both during and after I feel was truly mismanaged. The justifications for why he wasn’t kept out after camp are all excuses for a mistake, imo.

The rest were not nearly as certain, and can certainly understand why they weren’t kept up out of camp. Having said that the team has been very slow to revamp the underperforming fourth line. And while not the biggest issue, a fourth line that is a net positive can still turn some regulation losses into extra time points, or tie games into wins once in a while.

It seems like the team does the right thing, but both Treliving and Gulutzan tend to wait far longer than necessary to make the changes.

[Enoch Root]

9 games. And no team injuries (which is pretty rare).

As soon as there was an injury, Jankowski was in, and has never looked back.

In the meantime, he got a ton of ice-time, and tore up the A, giving him a ton of confidence.

I know that we, as fans, want our toys. But calling Jankowski's management a mistake is pretty ridiculous IMO.

[ForeverFlameFan]

I think the reason why we are wining games is that we finally have 4 legitimate lines rolling right now. You have a driver for every single line: Gaudreau on the 1st, Backlund on the second, Jankowski on the 3rd and Mangiapane on the 4th.