[Game Takes] Oilers 7 Flames 5

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think the coaching staff is between a rock and a hard place because they have options without speed or any touch at all.

When you have Brouwer, Stajan and to a lesser extent Versteeg you lose the speed battle on most nights. If they were wily they'd be fine, but the scoring touch has gone off a cliff leaving players that aren't good defensively, no longer able to get by with speed and chipping in on the scoresheet.

That's why I think Brouwer may get bought out this summer.

Brouwer should be able to do those things.

And Hathaway and Lazar most certainly can provide speed and energy.

If Hamilton can't, grow some cajones and send him down and bring in someone who can.

[Flash Walken]

I mean, you can say brouwer or lazar should be able to do things, but obviously they haven't been.

Is that because the coach doesn't want them to? Are they being abjectly defiant and are unwilling to do things like receive passes in stride or hit the net with shots?

Is it more likely that they just can't do those things?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I mean, you can say brouwer or lazar should be able to do things, but obviously they haven't been.

Is that because the coach doesn't want them to? Are they being abjectly defiant and are unwilling to do things like receive passes in stride or hit the net with shots?

Is it more likely that they just can't do those things?

We're not asking for 40 goals here, we're asking for energy and physicality. They most definitely can do those things.

So yeah, I think it is reasonable to question whether they are being asked to do other things.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think the coaching staff is between a rock and a hard place because they have options without speed or any touch at all.

When you have Brouwer, Stajan and to a lesser extent Versteeg you lose the speed battle on most nights. If they were wily they'd be fine, but the scoring touch has gone off a cliff leaving players that aren't good defensively, no longer able to get by with speed and chipping in on the scoresheet.

That's why I think Brouwer may get bought out this summer.

I agree with you on all counts, but nothing has changed. Gulutzan still inserts Stajan into the lineup, and still keeps Brouwer in the lineup every single game, and gives him PP time.

Want a speedy and gritty 4th line that provides energy?

Hathaway - Lazar - Hamilton

Say what you will about this 4th line, but at least they provide some speed and physical play.

I understand why he moved Versteeg down and didn't sit him out. I understand why Stajan is regularly shuffled in the lineup. I also understand why Brouwer is in the lineup. However, at this point in the season, you just have to make the change, regardless of the leadership intangibles, or hoping for a Brouwer turnaround to make him an easier piece to trade away. You just have to ice the best lineup you can, and I think that line I wrote above at least makes this Flames team a faster team with a much more physical presence.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We're not asking for 40 goals here, we're asking for energy and physicality. They most definitely can do those things.

So yeah, I think it is reasonable to question whether they are being asked to do other things.

Yeah but I think players are just hitting the wall more and more because they can't get to the right places fast enough to provide "energy" and "physicality".

If you show up for a hit after the other guy has already moved on you can't hit thin air.

I think the speed of the game over the past few years has buried some of these guys.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We're not asking for 40 goals here, we're asking for energy and physicality. They most definitely can do those things.

So yeah, I think it is reasonable to question whether they are being asked to do other things.

So you think the coach is asking them to be passive and ####ty offensive black holes?

I understand the notion that maybe the depth of the team is incapable of doing things that would result in wins contradicts your opinion that the team is highly skilled and fast, but do you really think it's likely that the coach is asking the fourth line to not engage physically, be slow on the forecheck and not chip in offensively?

Does it make any sense at all that Lazar for example is following those directions to a T and isn't getting into games or extra ice time even though he's following the coaching direction explicitly?

Come.On.Man.

[Tinordi]

Brouwer has some of the worst advanced stats in the league. Is that a coaching issue? Please.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So you think the coach is asking them to be passive and ####ty offensive black holes?

I am confident that you can read from my post that I didn't say that.

I understand the notion that maybe the depth of the team is incapable of doing things that would result in wins contradicts your opinion that the team is highly skilled and fast, but do you really think it's likely that the coach is asking the fourth line to not engage physically, be slow on the forecheck and not chip in offensively?

Watch them play. They don't hit. They play a positional game and try to get sticks in lanes. They stop and stand still at centre ice. They dump it in and then wait for the other team to carry it out. And it isn't just the 4th line doing it, it's the whole team. So yes, I do think the coach is telling them to do it - or at least confusing them enough that they're effectively paralyzed.

And Lazar, actually does hit. He does actually forecheck agressively. Which is why I think he should be in the lineup. I already said we aren't looking for goals from them (but you like to puts words in peoples' mouths and then attack that, so carry on).

Does it make any sense at all that Lazar for example is following those directions to a T and isn't getting into games or extra ice time even though he's following the coaching direction explicitly?

This comment makes no sense. Lazar has worked his tail off - that is undeniable. The coach doesn't like what he is doing out there, obviously. But it isn't because he isn't working hard. And I will go back to the point that what I think is important from a 4th line is hard work, energy, and physicality. He sin't getting that from Stajan or Brouwer (Stajan works hard but can't provide the rest), but he is getting that from Lazar. And yet Lazar sits. Which further illustrates what the coach values.

[Flash Walken]

I don't know why it is hard to read your own words.

"We're not asking for 40 goals here, we're asking for energy and physicality"

And the reason they aren't doing those things isn't because they can't, but because:

"I think it is reasonable to question whether they are being asked to do other things."

So you think the coach is actually asking them to not be physical or to provide energy. It is at least plausible, based in your own exact words, that they are being asked to do things other than provide physicality and energy. They are, by your words, capable of doing so but aren't, in your words, because the coach may not be asking them to.

However, even though they are not providing energy and physicality, presumably based on coaching directive, that isn't' enough to earn them more icetime or even actual starts.

So Gulutzan is saying go out there and don't provide physicality or energy, and when they don't do either of those things, he's benching them for...doing what he asked them to do?

How does that make any sense at all?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Brouwer has some of the worst advanced stats in the league. Is that a coaching issue? Please.

Not just worst advanced stats, but terrible stats period.

And yeah, obviously it's a coaching issue that he's still playing and even on the PP.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Itse

Not just worst advanced stats, but terrible stats period.

And yeah, obviously it's a coaching issue that he's still playing and even on the PP.

there is a lot of organizational pressure to get brouwer to perform.

Even getting him to the point of retaining half his salary in order to trade him is preferable to a buyout this year.

It's obviously not working but it makes a ton of sense why it keeps happening.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So you think the coach is actually asking them to not be physical or to provide energy. It is at least plausible, based in your own exact words, that they are being asked to do things other than provide physicality and energy. They are, by your words, capable of doing so but aren't, in your words, because the coach may not be asking them to.

However, even though they are not providing energy and physicality, presumably based on coaching directive, that isn't' enough to earn them more icetime or even actual starts.

So Gulutzan is saying go out there and don't provide physicality or energy, and when they don't do either of those things, he's benching them for...doing what he asked them to do?

How does that make any sense at all?

You have a glaring logical error here.

Just because Gulutzan is asking something other than energy and hits from these players does not mean they can magically provide it.

If we assume that these players can't give much more than energy and hits, and then assume the coach has asked them to do something which contradicts that one thing they're good at, then logically it would follow that the players would fail to do what the coach wants, and then it would logically follow that they'll get benched.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Itse

You have a glaring logical error here.

Just because Gulutzan is asking something other than energy and hits from these players does not mean they can magically provide it.

If we assume that these players can't give much more than energy and hits, and then assume the coach has asked them to do something which contradicts that one thing they're good at, then logically it would follow that the players would fail to do what the coach wants, and then it would logically follow that they'll get benched.

Well what are those things the coach is asking them to do that they are incapable of doing? Serious question. What is Gulutzan asking the 4th line to do that they are unwilling or incapable of doing that keeps earning them a weekly rotation in and out of the lineup?

I'm open to the idea that he's asking to them to do things other than hit or play with energy, but I fear that the answer to the question invariably points to them not being capable NHLers if they can't reliably perform tasks related to staying in the lineup.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well what are those things the coach is asking them to do that they are incapable of doing? Serious question. What is Gulutzan asking the 4th line to do that they are unwilling or incapable of doing that keeps earning them a weekly rotation in and out of the lineup?

Not really my argument, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's asking them to play the same way as all the other lines. Possession hockey in short. Really the opposite of grinding hockey.

If he is in fact doing that he is indeed a pretty bad coach, because that's just not realistic.

EDIT: Doesn't really matter for the sake of the logical argument. Also, if he was constantly asking the players to do something they can't it would be almost impossible for us to say what exactly are they supposed to be doing because we'd never see it on the ice.

You could really widen this argument to the whole team. If the players are constantly having trouble executing the system, it would be very hard for anyone watching to say decisively what the system is just by watching the games.

[home_sweet_dome]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

there is a lot of organizational pressure to get brouwer to perform.

Even getting him to the point of retaining half his salary in order to trade him is preferable to a buyout this year.

It's obviously not working but it makes a ton of sense why it keeps happening.

that's freaking dumb.

There should be organizational pressure to win, not to get 1 guy who was signed to a ludicrous contract to perform just to move said contract.

The revenue from 1 playoff series trumps the cost of Brouwer's contract, not to mention the other 100 reasons why winning is more important than whatever happens to Troy fataing Brouwer.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by home_sweet_dome

that's freaking dumb.

There should be organizational pressure to win, not to get 1 guy who was signed to a ludicrous contract to perform just to move said contract.

The revenue from 1 playoff series trumps the cost of Brouwer's contract, not to mention the other 100 reasons why winning is more important than whatever happens to Troy fataing Brouwer.

But it's not about revenue, it's about cap space.

I'd assume the Flames would love to find a way to move Brouwer, but they can't if he's a healthy scratch and not doing anything. So I think he's right, he's gifted a spot with the hopes that he can turn it around enough to get moved.

4.5M in cap space for the next two years (plus this year) is rough, so to is 1.5M in cap space for the next four years (after this one) if they buy him out.

They are under pressure to manage the cap to keep the existing impact players.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't know why it is hard to read your own words.

"We're not asking for 40 goals here, we're asking for energy and physicality"

And the reason they aren't doing those things isn't because they can't, but because:

"I think it is reasonable to question whether they are being asked to do other things."

So you think the coach is actually asking them to not be physical or to provide energy. It is at least plausible, based in your own exact words, that they are being asked to do things other than provide physicality and energy. They are, by your words, capable of doing so but aren't, in your words, because the coach may not be asking them to.

However, even though they are not providing energy and physicality, presumably based on coaching directive, that isn't' enough to earn them more icetime or even actual starts.

So Gulutzan is saying go out there and don't provide physicality or energy, and when they don't do either of those things, he's benching them for...doing what he asked them to do?

How does that make any sense at all?

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just being purposely obtuse today to try and make your points.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just being purposely obtuse today to try and make your points.

What was wrong with his post?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But it's not about revenue, it's about cap space.

I'd assume the Flames would love to find a way to move Brouwer, but they can't if he's a healthy scratch and not doing anything. So I think he's right, he's gifted a spot with the hopes that he can turn it around enough to get moved.

4.5M in cap space for the next two years (plus this year) is rough, so to is 1.5M in cap space for the next four years (after this one) if they buy him out.

They are under pressure to manage the cap to keep the existing impact players.

While there's definitely merit to trying this, Brouwers time on the PP has probably just lowered his value even more. If there's a team out there looking for a big body to use on the PP who could pound in some rebounds, they now know Brouwer is not the guy they're looking for. This has been clear a while now, so no point in still doing it.

He's not a bad PK player, but it doesn't really matter at that cap hit. Really the best thing would be to send him to AHL and bring up a rookie. Cap wise it's pretty much a wash.

You could maybe get someone to take him at something like 3.3M retained, but that would be a pretty rare deal and not a significant cap save.

[Brick]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah but I think players are just hitting the wall more and more because they can't get to the right places fast enough to provide "energy" and "physicality".

If you show up for a hit after the other guy has already moved on you can't hit thin air.

I think the speed of the game over the past few years has buried some of these guys.

You would think that the Flames scouts and management staff should have known about the speed of the game before they signed certain players.