Amazon planning second headquarters with 50,000 jobs

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Azure

The reason worker conditions are setup like that in Germany is because they realized this problem 30 years ago and implemented the changes required in order to be successful. Outside of the climate there is no reason we can't offer the same worker protections. And at the end of the day people will accept working outside if it pays the bills.

Our problem is nobody is even getting into the trades, nor do we have government programs to encourage it or school programs to support it. Instead we have teachers who actively campaign to get our kids into going for useless degrees where they won't be employable once they graduate.

That has to change or North America is going to keep suffering.

We do have government programs that encourage people to get into trades

https://tradesecrets.alberta.ca/fina...-tax-benefits/

I would argue that teachers aren’t as opposed to trades as you are making them out to be. Sure teachers will encourage students to aim high, but I doubt you’d ever hear a teacher dissuade a solid C- student from getting into a trade if the classroom is a setting they struggle to thrive in.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Azure

The reason worker conditions are setup like that in Germany is because they realized this problem 30 years ago and implemented the changes required in order to be successful. Outside of the climate there is no reason we can't offer the same worker protections. And at the end of the day people will accept working outside if it pays the bills.

Our problem is nobody is even getting into the trades, nor do we have government programs to encourage it or school programs to support it. Instead we have teachers who actively campaign to get our kids into going for useless degrees where they won't be employable once they graduate.

That has to change or North America is going to keep suffering.

We do have some, but it isn't enough.

At almost every career fair at a Calgary school, there is someone there from "Careers: the Next Generation" / RAP program (registered apprenticeship program). I know they also present in CALM classes as well. They also help high schoolers find trade work experience practicums and get them set up with Journeymen in the field. CBE and CCSD have it on their websites as well.

While I agree with the premise that they are woefully under represented in schools, it does exist as an option. I know Careers TNG is a one or two person show and they are stretched very thin.

[CliffFletcher]

I think the point is that there are far too many people going into university to study social science, humanities, and fine arts than there are employers looking to hire people with those qualifications. You have Boomer parents who think the world is still like it was in 1978 when graduates could walk into a nice white-collar job if they had any kind of university degree. Then you have teachers, who themselves almost all took social science, humanities, and fine arts degrees, and don't seem to recognize it's really only a viable educational path for teachers. But how many teachers do we need?

There are class issues at play too. White collar parents pretty much regard it as a calamity if their kids go into blue collar work, even if it means earning $75k as an electrician vs $35k for working at a call centre. I know healthy 30ish guys whose parents support them working in nowhere service jobs and living at home because getting their hands dirty in a blue collar job is unthinkable.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I think the point is that there are far too many people going into university to study social science, humanities, and fine arts than there are employers looking to hire people with those qualifications. You have Boomer parents who think the world is still like it was in 1978 when graduates could walk into a nice white-collar job if they had any kind of university degree. Then you have teachers, who themselves almost all took social science, humanities, and fine arts degrees, and don't seem to recognize it's really only a viable educational path for teachers. But how many teachers do we need?

There are class issues at play too. White collar parents pretty much regard it as a calamity if their kids go into blue collar work, even if it means earning $75k as an electrician vs $35k for working at a call centre. I know healthy 30ish guys whose parents support them working in nowhere service jobs and living at home because getting their hands dirty in a blue collar job is unthinkable.

Yes, the university model is broken. Both kids and parents aren't educated properly on how to get the most out of post-secondary education. It's still stuck in that classical liberal arts mode of a century ago where most programs don't translate into real-world jobs in a logical manner that kids can understand. Many go to university just for the sake of doing it or because of their parents and end up in programs with narrow potential in the real world economy.

Even programs that logically line up with a real world job like an education degree -> teaching are messed up because universities are pumping out too many teachers than are actually needed and many of the graduates can't find a viable position or end up being a sub and transient for 10+ years until more boomers retire.

I understand not everybody can get into a STEM program because of academic rigors but even business schools which have a little more applicability are hard to get into because there isn't enough capacity. Trade schools on the other hand, have a big stigma with a lot of parents and certain cultural groups who see a welding ticket (which paid over 6 figures in the boom years) as being a lesser and lower prestige education than BA in History which pays nothing.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

We do have some, but it isn't enough.

At almost every career fair at a Calgary school, there is someone there from "Careers: the Next Generation" / RAP program (registered apprenticeship program). I know they also present in CALM classes as well. They also help high schoolers find trade work experience practicums and get them set up with Journeymen in the field. CBE and CCSD have it on their websites as well.

While I agree with the premise that they are woefully under represented in schools, it does exist as an option. I know Careers TNG is a one or two person show and they are stretched very thin.

I am talking about more than that though. The companies themselves should be actively recruiting in high schools, and students should be able to focus on a trades degree as early as grade 10 or even younger. If they want to switch later on it should be no problem doing so.

Here is an article that does a good job explaining it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business...orkers/381550/

The U.S. has its own tradition of apprenticeship going back many years. But like most kinds of vocational education, it fell out of fashion in recent decades—a victim of our obsession with college and concern to avoid anything that resembles tracking. Today in America, fewer than 5 percent of young people train as apprentices, the overwhelming majority in the construction trades. In Germany, the number is closer to 60 percent—in fields as diverse as advanced manufacturing, IT, banking, and hospitality. And in Europe, what’s often called “dual training” is a highly respected career path.

The final obstacle is arguably the biggest: American attitudes toward practical skills and what Germans still unabashedly call “blue-collar” work. Attitudes are changing in Germany too. Globalization has brought the bachelor’s degree, unknown until recently, and with it, a new, broader interest in attending college. But there’s little sign that the growth in BAs is undermining apprenticeships. And in both settings, university and dual training, it’s agreed that the purpose of education is to prepare people for jobs. In America, we’re not sure. We’re committed to the idea of education that prepares people for life and suspicious of anything that smacks of training.

Our entire education system is a royal mess. And as a result our society is as well.

Cliff, this is also why people have a problem with the establishment. Because while they have 'jobs' (unemployment is pretty low) the jobs aren't exactly helping them advance in society and as a result they have a problem with a society that treats them that way. If we spent more time getting people into jobs and a career where they actively feel worthwhile, the view towards the establishment and corporate culture would change a lot.

[PaperBagger'14]

Trades are a great thing and speaking completely anecdotally I would 100% encourage my kid to get a ticket.

I got a ticket as many on here know and the work and conditions weren't the easiest thing. This, combined with my general curiosity and interest in the electrical field brought me to a higher level of education (engineer tech) and now I'm working on my 2nd journeyman ticket.

There's also nothing wrong with "just being a journeyman" as you can open your own small business and do side work for jobs that your full time company wouldn't normally take on (smaller projects like garages/basements) and make good coin in doing it. If anyone does go down that path I'd advise talking to your project manager or some ranking person in the company and get their blessing, but in my experience it's never been an issue.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

[/B]

We do have government programs that encourage people to get into trades

https://tradesecrets.alberta.ca/fina...-tax-benefits/

I would argue that teachers aren’t as opposed to trades as you are making them out to be. Sure teachers will encourage students to aim high, but I doubt you’d ever hear a teacher dissuade a solid C- student from getting into a trade if the classroom is a setting they struggle to thrive in.

You know I grew up in small town Alberta and I don't remember a single recruiter from any 'blue collar' company coming to talk to us about the work they do. The reason I threw in the 'small town Alberta' part is because one would think small town kids who grew up on farms/ranches, etc would be more inclined to do blue collar work.

Many of my friends went to work in the O&G sector(there was a boom at the time), Fortis, Vestas, etc....but I do not remember anyone from those companies coming to talk to us. I do however remember all too well people coming from the U of C business administration school telling us how the MBA & engineering program would serve us well in the future.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Trades are a great thing and speaking completely anecdotally I would 100% encourage my kid to get a ticket.

I got a ticket as many on here know and the work and conditions weren't the easiest thing. This, combined with my general curiosity and interest in the electrical field brought me to a higher level of education (engineer tech) and now I'm working on my 2nd journeyman ticket.

There's also nothing wrong with "just being a journeyman" as you can open your own small business and do side work for jobs that your full time company wouldn't normally take on (smaller projects like garages/basements) and make good coin in doing it. If anyone does go down that path I'd advise talking to your project manager or some ranking person in the company and get their blessing, but in my experience it's never been an issue.

The other important part of the trades world is that if you are good at what you do, and have good customer service, you are pretty much set for life. There are a lot of fraudsters out there, especially in housing related trades, and people will pay money to have someone who they can trust.

Imagine that, a job where if you put in a lot of effort you get rewarded for it.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Azure

You know I grew up in small town Alberta and I don't remember a single recruiter from any 'blue collar' company coming to talk to us about the work they do. The reason I threw in the 'small town Alberta' part is because one would think small town kids who grew up on farms/ranches, etc would be more inclined to do blue collar work.

Many of my friends went to work in the O&G sector(there was a boom at the time), Fortis, Vestas, etc....but I do not remember anyone from those companies coming to talk to us. I do however remember all too well people coming from the U of C business administration school telling us how the MBA & engineering program would serve us well in the future.

Your personal experience sheds a little light on your views. As I’m sure you know the majority of graduates(and Albertans in general) don’t live in small towns. I’m sure you would probably also agree that financially it may not be cost effective to visit a lot of remote areas for promotional tours. A trade is a complicated thing to promote because most tradespeople, even within a specific trade, work for different employers. An individual employer may not need to actively recruit tradespeople, and typically they would probably prefer to hire someone with even a little bit of experience.

Oil companies and universities were there because they could profit from being. As you stated, there was an oil boom at the time you were in high school, go back to your same high school today and I highly doubt you see any O&G recruiters. Universities will still be there because because they can still make money off having you enroll.

So while I agree with you that trades should be promoted, I’m not sure how much more can be done and I don’t think that the government can be reasonably expected to compete with private sector recruitment practices used by for profit employers and companies(ie:universities)

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

An individual employer may not need to actively recruit tradespeople, and typically they would probably prefer to hire someone with even a little bit of experience.

I can only speak to my own experience on this but for employers in a large city and for a mid-large size company, they don't overly care. Sure if you could get a 2nd year apprentice who has previous experience with tools, that would be great. But really it's more of a numbers game.

You pay a 1st year apprentice who knows nothing of electricity 50% of a Jman, and he delivers a valuable but easy job. A skilled and smart 2nd or 3rd year apprentice making 60-70% of Jman rate is where companies make or break a job. A good 3rd year should be comparable to a fresh jman at 70% of the cost. I've heard of many companies screaming for moderately experienced electricians who are smart enough to know the no and hazards, but cheap enough to keep jobs profitable.

[Erick Estrada]

My neighbour across the street is a plumber. He started working for himself with his sons just over a decade ago. They are so busy that they can pick and choose their work. It's not a glamorous sounding career but the money can be very good and there's as much work as you want. He has plenty of money and a vacation house on the lake. Not too shabby if you ask me.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

My neighbour across the street is a plumber. He started working for himself with his sons just over a decade ago. They are so busy that they can pick and choose their work. It's not a glamorous sounding career but the money can be very good and there's as much work as you want. He has plenty of money and a vacation house on the lake. Not too shabby if you ask me.

I can almost guarantee I know who you're talking about haha.

Edit: and if it's who I'm thinking, he's a great dude and a great plumber. There's also a very good chance we have met in passing.

[SebC]

Would the trades not also get affected by automation?

[Northendzone]

^ in some circumstances I would think so, but in others I don't think so.

could you program a robot to come to your house and fix a toilet? or replace a hot water tank? persumablly to come to your house, a robot would have to be about the same size and build as a human and then be able to look at the situation. have we advanced enough to write all of that computer code?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by SebC

Would the trades not also get affected by automation?

The service end won't but all of fabrication will. Welding outside of the field welds will be robotic. I was just at this fab shop that had a bending machine that you put in the drawing and it would bend all pipe 2" and smaller into the shape it needed to be. It was pretty slick and fast.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by GGG

I was just at this fab shop that had a bending machine that you put in the drawing and it would bend all pipe 2" and smaller into the shape it needed to be. It was pretty slick and fast.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by SebC

Would the trades not also get affected by automation?

To an extent sure, it all depends what the future holds. If modular buildings and homes become more popular then probably. I don't see any reason why a pre fabbed building couldn't be built through automation, but I don't see custom work being done by robots in my lifetime.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course all of this is dependent around the argument that automation will lead to a net loss in jobs. I don't believe that will be true.

EDIT: A good example would be German manufacturing over the last 20-30 years. Many businesses have become highly automated replacing the need for manual labor. In comparison to similar North American companies the German ones would be years ahead. They handled that change in the workforce by getting more high school students involved in the trades at a younger age. Many large firms offer apprenticeship programs STRAIGHT out of high school. In comparison to North America where we have kids going in a for an 'Arts' degree and wondering why they are not employable when they graduate this is a big reason why Europe is years ahead of us.

North America is going to have a severe shortage of skilled labor in the next 20-30 years. The job market for red seal electricians alone is going to seriously deplete as the average age of electricians is nearing retirement. Instead of adapting to this change we continue pushing our kids into getting non-employable degrees. The trades are looked at as a second tier job that nobody wants. I have personally heard teachers and guidance counselors telling students to not go the trade route because who wants to be a lowly plumber?

We deserve every problem we are going to have in the next few decades when it comes to higher levels of poverty, shrinking wages and more unemployable morons graduating with their 4 year degree in 'how to be completely useless to society.' We should be subsidizing NOT post secondary in general, but actual post secondary programs that lead to sustainable jobs. Half the bloody problem is giving out student loans for kids to get degrees that serve no purpose for anyone.

The German system is interesting, and a great example of one way to do things, but you have to understand the unspoken reasons why it works there, and wouldn't be able to be transplanted whole to North America.

Kids in German school are very tied to their grades. The grades they get in elementary school determine their entire life - and I'm not exaggerating. The reason is because starting in Junior High, a kid will be placed in one of three levels of high school - the Gymnasium, the Skilled Trade school, and the other school. A kid can be demoted, but never (as far as I was told) promoted - once in a "lower" level of school, forever. In many ways, the kids there described it as a kind of caste system. In grade 11 back in 1996, I was able to do a German exchange, where I went to live with a German family for 3 months, and they got to live with us for that same amount of time. I was able to go to a Gymnasium (university entry high school), and my cousin was in the next lower high school, because of who our exchange students were. Now, his student was a brilliant guy, but a bit of an anarchist. It was his punk leaning tendencies that had him in that lower level of school - he was told he was lucky he wasn't in the even lower high school, which was only good enough to prepare a student for a life of bagging groceries, or working at the mall. A kid like that, would not be given the opportunity to shake off teenage issues there, whereas here, he would have little difficulty.

However, because everyone in the schools you were in were all heading to the same paths in life, there was very little looking down on people from within their social circles - they merely had their social circles decided for them, based on the grades they got in grade 2. For someone who's life was destined for the trades, this was a likely highly positive thing. For a guy like me, intelligent, but dealing with social issues, I have no idea how it would have worked out. For my friend in Germany, it was very difficult.

[CliffFletcher]

The other thing about the German system that's difficult (impossible?) to replicate elsewhere is the Mittlestand sector of the economy - small and medium-sized businesses, often privately-owned and with deep roots in the community, that provide jobs for life (< 3% employee turnover a year). That provides a kind of stability and security to work in the trades and manufacturing that simply doesn't exist in North America.

[taco.vidal]

One walk through Seattle's 'Amazonia' neighborhood made me very uneasy for whatever city gets HQ2

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazo...n-hq2-2017-12/