Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Scary Eloranta]

This franchise seems cursed. Probably won't see a new building for another 10 years at this rate.

[Vansmack]

Has anyone published the projected property tax revenue for the surrounding developments? I always assumed this would be the main drive for the city and it's taxpayers.

[getbak]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1382424100023439368

[Jimmy Stang]

So what's the end game here? Wait for prices to drop? Water down the project to come in under budget? Make it a civic election issue, either intentionally or accidentally? Or come begging to the city (and citizens), who have yet to fully realize the full economic fallout of the pandemic, for more public money?

I'm not seeing any positives here. I will say that the Flames need to tread very lightly though if they are expecting any public support. It was a tough sell to the public before the pandemic. But now or during the eventual post-pandemic recovery? They might be surprised by their new, lower priority in people's minds.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by neo45

100M dollar shortfall is what I’ve heard

They had a contractual agreement on how to split up to a certain $$$ figure of budget overages (20 million maybe?) but not this high

The really bad news that I have heard is the greyhound station site is very much back on the table by the car dealerships... I don’t know how they think that’s a good arena spot

I don't mean to offend but can I ask your source, or type of source (i.e. flames, media, city)? Zero pressure to answer, but this type of talk simply screams to me as Flames fear mongering and more bull crap tactics.

Go purchase the WV land, clean it up, and develop it with private money. Have fun at that. Or want public money? good luck developing with the same amount of pubic funds if these cost overruns are too much.

Its not a feasible plan, and its an empty threat.

Aside from that WHOOOPIE. I highly doubt this disaster of taxpayer money will be gone forever, Council loves vanity project and nothing is better than a sports team to spend a tax dollars on a vanity project for, but a delay means the money isn't spent as soon, which is a good thing.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Have to wonder how bad the cost overruns on BMO are.

The key thing for me is always what new value a project delivers.

New arena vs. Saddledome? For everyone other than CSEC it's somewhere between a minor-loss and a minor-win (depending on individual preferences, ticket prices vs. concourse experience, etc.).

While it's a bit sad to lose the Corral, the new BMO will deliver a ton more function and actually bump us up a tier in conference hosting.

I think there are a bunch of 'new value' capital projects (fieldhouse) that I'd prefer to a dubious arena upgrade.

Every Flames game for the last decade should have been paying a 'building replacement tax'. Saddledome is still fine for another 10-15 years...no reason we shouldn't start building the nest egg (albeit a drop in the bucket) with a tax as soon as events resume.


Even the aforementioned Olympic Stadium debacle was at least a totally 'new' addition of capacity that permitted things like Olympics, Expos, etc. The project being a mess is a somewhat different issue.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The key thing for me is always what new value a project delivers.

I haven't seen one, but did the Flames or the arena proponents spit out any sort of study showing the NEW investment this project would bring, opposed to simply leeching investment from elsewhere in the City?

Has anyone seen one? For all the talk of how this is a net gain for the city, as anyone attempted to provided numbers to back it up, as much as they would need to be estimates?

Or is it all just hand waving?

[Vinny01]

If delays are going to be multiple seasons then going a tear down rebuild route does make a lot more sense. If we have 5+ years left in the Dome then there is time to strip it down and turn it around.

If the plan is to play in the new barn in 3-5 seasons then I think they still go the retool route with a goal of competition going and winning ASAP.

[DionTheDman]

Cost overruns have necessitated a revised design at a drastically reduced budget. Renderings were leaked and this is what it is expected to look like:

[Joborule]

If it's mainly based around price for materials right now that has greatly escalated costs, than it makes sense to hold off for a little bit, as long as construction still does get started next year. The intended date to complete construction by is in time for the start of the 2024-25 season. I think someone mentioned that ideally the original time of completion target was May 2024 so it can be ready in time for the Stampede that year.

These arenas typically take 2.5 - 3 years to complete. So if they want to still have it done in time for Stampede 2024, this can only be a delay by months, and still break ground in the fall of this year. Otherwise, they would need to start by spring next year to have a chance of being ready for Flames 2024 home opener.

Hopefully this is just a snag in the end, and they do commit in pushing this, as well as the other major civic projects (fieldhouse as The Familia mentioned) in starting construction still within the couple of years. The city has seriously pussyfooted with these type of projects over the past couple of decades, and the costs have just escalated as a result. Council needs to have more commitment and ambition on getting these projects actually built rather than just talking about it forever. Things never get cheaper.

[Minnie]

So the deal is on ice?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

To me the Edmonton situation almost makes sense for the city. They moved the arena to an area where they could build up around it. Calgary isn't doing that. They are building the arena where the arena currently is. They aren't improving much about that area overall, that couldn't have already been done. Sure there will be some more stuff down there, but it's not going to drastically improve a dead area, like Edmonton.

If its a good investment you wouldn't have billionaire investors fighting to not invest. Case closed. It's a bad investment, especially for the city. I'd find it much easier to accept the original deal where the City paid a third, but still, I find it aggravating.

The cost in the long run is a big issue as far as I'm concerned, we're cutting money, jobs, increasing taxes and now we're handing billionaires money for something that doesn't have a ton of benefit when it's all said and done. Families can't really afford to go to games, and they will still spend their money, it's not like people spend their money at flames games or nothing.

I've also been a flames fan my whole life, so I understand the other side, of the argument, but just looking at it with no bias, it's not a good deal.

And just look how well that worked.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Council needs to have more commitment and ambition on getting these projects actually built rather than just talking about it forever. Things never get cheaper.

I want to be clear so I understand, your argument is that inflation exists so we should build as much and as soon as possible?

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Mull

I want to be clear so I understand, your argument is that inflation exists so we should build as much and as soon as possible?

Not exactly. Still have fiscal stewardship obviously, but don't be continuously kicking the can on projects that is recognized as a major need, but don't have the wiliness to actually put the money down and begin construction on it. The fieldhouse is the main thing that comes to mind here since that's been something that's been strongly desired for at least several decades, and then the concept and plan for it got a lot more serious back in 2010 or so, but still 11 years later, and the design and funding still not there for it. Within the timeframe, the costs for the fieldhouse has just kept rising, and will continue to rise.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Locke

And just look how well that worked.

That area is being built up though. There's been lots of commercial and residential development around the arena, and that entire area in gentrifying. It will only be a matter of time before the land north of that arena develops too. I think it's quite premature to suggest it hasn't worked.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by DionTheDman

Cost overruns have necessitated a revised design at a drastically reduced budget. Renderings were leaked and this is what it is expected to look like:

You leave the Biblio-Tank out of this

[The Yen Man]

Lol, is this thing going to be the arena version of the Calgary ring road? Edmonton will have had their ring road / arena for 10+ years completed and in full utilization before we even start building ours?

We already have McMahon stadium as a shining example of the state of our modern facilities. Might as well add the Saddledome to it as well I guess.

[Senator Clay Davis]

In even just the past few weeks materials have spiked 50% or more in some cases. Once the mills can operate at full capacity production will ramp up and prices will slowly come down. But in an election year there was never any chance the councilors who voted for this wanted to have a project that is $100 million+ over budget to have to talk about to voters.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Joborule

If it's mainly based around price for materials right now that has greatly escalated costs.

Apparently it's not just that... it's also disagreements on scope (which somehow wasn't ironed out when they signed the deal). Remember how the deal was that everything outside the scope would be paid for by the side that wanted it? Not such a great idea when you rush the job and don't figure out what the scope is beforehand.

https://skyrisecities.com/forum/thre...1#post-1677048

[Harry Lime]

It would be easier to wait years, and still be excited about the project, if it was architecturally cool. Maybe one of the inverted stadiums previously discussed.

Right now it feels a little like : old block with seats falling apart, must wait for new block with seats.