lets all just be honest here.... there is nothing wrong with criticizing Biden. But this is kind of rube's shtick to pick at superfluous things and make them into big deals.
How its mental faculties of a prospective presidential candidate superfluous? How many hundreds of posts in this thread have been dedicated to Trump's mental faculties?
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I think the thing people like rube need to remember when blaming centrists for not advancing the agenda of the left is that centrists are in the middle where things get done. The prime example is Obamacare. It ended up being a watered down compromise and republicans have still spent a decade tearing it apart as much as they can. So progressives and Bernie can have all the plans they want. But they aren't going anywhere. So quit taking your frustration out on people like Biden.
Except the problem is that many of these compromises water down the initial premise to the point where it's ineffective and thus damages the legitimacy of the original policy.
There was also no reason that Obama had to compromise (he had control of the house and senate at the time) and I suspect the reason he did had as much to do with the insurance lobby as it did with trying to compromise with Republicans.
Was it a good compromise to bail out the banks and do absolutely nothing to the bankers who were responsible causing the financial meltdown? Or to illegally drone the #### out of people? Or to begin the process of putting kids in cages? How about voting in favour of the Iraq war? Minimum sentencing for drug charges that disproportionately affected black people? The Patriot Act?
If so, then progressives have every right to be frustrated with a guy who, as a centrist, has been in lockstep with some of the more fascist/authoritarian elements of the right for decades.
Biden to suddenly drop out and have the Democratic party in chaos less than 100 days before the election?
Convince people Biden is less than perfect and therefore shouldn't vote for him in November?
Or is it that you want Trump to keep America great?
Is it something I'm missing? Honest question. I try my damnedest to understand others' points of view and I'm honestly struggling to figure out your reasoning.
Like I get you don't like Biden, but the only other actual option is Trump, which I believe (I could be mistaken) you've stated is worse.
Can you fill me in? You can PM of you want to avoid others flaming your opinion. We can keep the reasoning confidential if you wish.
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I mean that largely ignores Corbyn's first election and has literally nothing to do with what I'm talking about, but carry on.
You mean the election where the UK voters, utterly sick of a Tory Government that had made massive catastrophic cuts to every level of social services over the previous 10 years, came within a hair breathe of losing the Scottish referendum, lost the Brexit referendum, was polling as the most unpopular Government in history, then choose one of the least capable campaigning leaders in history with the personality of a dead fish who ran an abysmally bad campaign promising nothing but more pain and cut backs and yet still won both the election and the largest voter share since Thatcher, you really mean that election that a half competent syphilitic Hamster should have been able to win after the utter catastrophe the Tories of the Tories previous decade, an election incidently that was prophetic in the vast number of traditional Labour voters that abandoned the party due to their distrust of Corbyn, amply presaging the utter devestation and complete wipe out of the Labour Party in its traditional heart land.
You mean that election??
In our lifetime the Labour Party will never take power in the UK now because of Corbyn, the UK is basically a Tory country now never to change
When Obama isn't good enough for you, you're wishing for a magical fairyland candidate. In the real world, tough choices are made while balancing a thousand factors that you aren't privy to.
All presidents make mistakes. All presidents make choices you won't agree with. All adults can accept compromise in an incredibly diverse and difficult to govern country. I'm not sure why you cannot.
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Originally Posted by ResAlien
If we can't fall in love with replaceable bottom 6 players then the terrorists have won.
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I want people to hold him accountable for who he has been and how he's contributed to the mess that is the current political landscape. I want people to vote for him, but go into his administration with their eyes open and hold his feet to the fire as soon as he starts falling back on old habits.
My worry is that people continue to see Trump as the disease and not the symptom of greater issues, to which Biden has been a tremendous contributor to. This is exemplified by the revisionist history of the Bush administration (and embrace of neocon shills) who caused far more catastrophic damage than Trump has.
Yes, it'll be nice to have a president who doesn't say the quiet parts loud, but this whole "return to normal" ideation really ignores the fact that the "normal" of 2008 - 2016 was still really ####ty for millions of people and we need someone to do better than normal if we want to avoid 4-8 years of even more extreme (and probably more competent) fascism in 2024 or 2028.
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I want people to hold him accountable for who he has been and how he's contributed to the mess that is the current political landscape. I want people to vote for him, but go into his administration with their eyes open and hold his feet to the fire as soon as he starts falling back on old habits.
My worry is that people continue to see Trump as the disease and not the symptom of greater issues, to which Biden has been a tremendous contributor to. This is exemplified by the revisionist history of the Bush administration (and embrace of neocon shills) who caused far more catastrophic damage than Trump has.
Yes, it'll be nice to have a president who doesn't say the quiet parts loud, but this whole "return to normal" ideation really ignores the fact that the "normal" of 2008 - 2016 was still really ####ty for millions of people and we need someone to do better than normal if we want to avoid 4-8 years of even more extreme (and probably more competent) fascism in 2024 or 2028.
When you have cancer, it's sort of irrelevant how may cigarettes you smoked over the past 40 years...you need to start chemo. You focus on the problem at hand, which is also the one that can be fixed.
Nobody can go back and undo the subpar education Trumpsters grew up with and the toxic ideaolgies that led to him being a compelling candidate for his supporters. The only thing that can be done is to vote him out. Once in power, democrats can begin to address the problems that have led to the right pushing further right and governing poorly. If the right stays in power, everything goes further toward flawed ideaolgies.
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I want people to hold him accountable for who he has been and how he's contributed to the mess that is the current political landscape. I want people to vote for him, but go into his administration with their eyes open and hold his feet to the fire as soon as he starts falling back on old habits.
My worry is that people continue to see Trump as the disease and not the symptom of greater issues, to which Biden has been a tremendous contributor to. This is exemplified by the revisionist history of the Bush administration (and embrace of neocon shills) who caused far more catastrophic damage than Trump has.
Yes, it'll be nice to have a president who doesn't say the quiet parts loud, but this whole "return to normal" ideation really ignores the fact that the "normal" of 2008 - 2016 was still really ####ty for millions of people and we need someone to do better than normal if we want to avoid 4-8 years of even more extreme (and probably more competent) fascism in 2024 or 2028.
Imagine a house was built with a poor roof. The shingles are curling up, and due to its poor construction water is draining into the chimney eroding the flashing.
Such a cruddy roof.
Now imagine the house is on fire with your family inside.
Do you, call the fire department or complain about the roof?
The house is on fire. Does that mean that you don't fix the roof once the fire is out? No. But the house needs the fire to be put out.
Keep in mind Biden likely isn't going to be the nominee in 2024, heck he likely won't even be president.
The other side of the coin is, a centrist might prevent the next fascist leader. If Trump is a result of Obama being too far left, then smaller steps are needed. Going too far left, is going to drive the centre further right.
The US has a history of going hard right if the step left isn't gradual enough.
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Keep in mind Biden likely isn't going to be the nominee in 2024, heck he likely won't even be president.
The other side of the coin is, a centrist might prevent the next fascist leader. If Trump is a result of Obama being too far left, then smaller steps are needed. Going too far left, is going to drive the centre further right.
The US has a history of going hard right if the step left isn't gradual enough.
All very true, but I agree with Rube that the likelihood is to a lot of voters, getting Trump out fixes things, and they'll go back to not caring. Absolutely getting Trump out is the goal, but there also needs to be a conversation about what happens after, and how another Trump is prevented.
It may not feel like now is the time, but after, I imagine it will be very hard to force change, because for most, no Trump is the only change they want.
I agree Trump needs to go, and people need to vote for Biden. But I agree with Rube that Trump is a symptom. A symptom that needs to be dealt with, but not the end of the problem.
But to counter that point, absolutely Trump needs to go is the overriding priority, and attacking Biden, while perhaps justified, is not going to help. How much it hurts depends on the voters, I guess. But they shouldn't be completely forgetting the long-term, even if it's not the focus, rightly so.
It's no good putting out the fire, if when it's out you say "All good" and the roof collapses and kills everyone anyway.
When Biden wins that’s win the left should match and protest in the streets. There needs to be the same level of immediate protests like the Women’s March were when Trump started.
If activism and protest stops the the Center will Be the norm. If the left still has the same energy to protest that they do now then there is a chance at change.
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Just listening to the Daily Podcast, and they said Trump claims that Beruit was an attack, but public officals disagree. In 2015 this would have litterally been the craziest thing that ever happened in the history of the presidency. now its not even news.
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I mean Trumps acting DHS secretary Wolf has been in place for longer than the maximum allowable by law of 210 days. Everything Wolf has done for months has been illegal.
Huge scandal in a previous admin. Doesn't even make a headline anywhere. Not sure why Dems aren't harping on it, maybe saving it for later? No idea why they'd save it it's nothing these days.
Courts ordered Trump to start accepting applications for DACA again after SCOTUS ruled he didn't legally end the program. But he's ignoring the court orders and rejecting new applications.
Again a huge scandal for any president to completely ignore the courts. Doesn't even make headlines.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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Q-Scout, it's no use, I already tried the house on fire metaphor. He doesn't get it.
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Originally Posted by rubecube
My worry is that people continue to see Trump as the disease and not the symptom of greater issues, to which Biden has been a tremendous contributor to.
Because, of course, a house fire causes itself. No one is suggesting Trump is a cause and not a symptom, but think of this as a disease that has caused a symptom that is potentially fatal. If you can hold off the symptom long enough to buy yourself time to fix the cause, you do that. That is the idea we're laboriously trying to impress upon you; the f--king house is on fire. Something caused that fire. But there's no fixing it unless we keep the house from being burned to the ground in the first place.
