Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Azure]

Who knew this was a long-term bad idea?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1883949756306870583

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

Who knew this was a long-term bad idea?

https://twitter.com/user/status/1883949756306870583

The US market is 10 times bigger than the domestic market (and readily accessible relative to the EU or China), so I'm not sure that this is all that surprising.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think everyone knows that Energy East isn't being built anymore.

I honestly think that even if every level of government would agree to whatever it takes to get it built, it still wouldn't happen because the courts would stop it, especially when it comes to First Nations agreement which is NEVER going to happen.

Then why are you upset about it?

(keeping in mind that those First Nations treaty agreements are the only reason Canada exists or has any of these resources to develop and trade).

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Makarov

The US market is 10 times bigger than the domestic market (and readily accessible relative to the EU or China), so I'm not sure that this is all that surprising.

It's also far closer geographically. Virtually every major city in Canada is closer to a large American city than another large Canadian one.

Like, is the fact that goods from BC are more likely to end up in Washington or Oregon than in Ontario or Quebec supposed to be some kind of gotcha?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Then why are you upset about it?

(keeping in mind that those First Nations treaty agreements are the only reason Canada exists or has any of these resources to develop and trade).

Strange take.

First Nations can benefit from Canada developing our natural resources. That is the goal right, to benefit Canadians?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

It's also far closer geographically. Virtually every major city in Canada is closer to a large American city than another large Canadian one.

Like, is the fact that goods from BC are more likely to end up in Washington or Oregon than in Ontario or Quebec supposed to be some kind of gotcha?

Oh, so you're saying that the only reason Canada doesn't trade more with itself is because of geographical reasons?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Azure

Strange take.

First Nations can benefit from Canada developing our natural resources. That is the goal right, to benefit Canadians?

Well, there is clearly more to the idea of "benefit" than just jobs or money.

The duty to consult (and, where appropriate, to accommodate) First Nations is enshrined in our constitution. So, to certain (not insignificant extent), First Nations have the right to determine whether or not these projects are over all a benefit for their people (all things considered). And they have a right to be consulted and to voice their views on whether a project is a benefit to their people (or how it could be made to be a benefit to their people).

And that isn't changing any time soon...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Well, there is clearly more to the idea of "benefit" than just jobs or money.

The duty to consult (and, where appropriate, to accommodate) First Nations is enshrined in our constitution. So, to certain (not insignificant extent), First Nations have the right to determine whether or not these projects are over all a benefit for their people (all things considered). And they have a right to be consulted and to voice their views on whether a project is a benefit to their people (or how it could be made to be a benefit to their people).

And that isn't changing any time soon...

Yes, we all know how it works.

The government could also establish an energy corridor and in that case First Nations groups would lose out on the benefits after the fact. Which is what should happen considering the stalemate they and other groups have created.

That much was proven with the Coastal Link stupidity.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yes, we all know how it works.

The government could also establish an energy corridor and in that case First Nations groups would lose out on the benefits after the fact. Which is what should happen considering the stalemate they and other groups have created.

That much was proven with the Coastal Link stupidity.

Why would that happen? Wouldn't they negotiate shared benefits across their territory? And your suggested policy for Canada going forward is "spite"?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh, so you're saying that the only reason Canada doesn't trade more with itself is because of geographical reasons?

Primarily, yes. Why would you pay to transport something 5,000km across Canada when you have a willing customer 500km away?

Yes, there are regulations that create barriers for domestic trade, but the same things exist to an even greater degree when it comes to international trade. Do think foreign producers having to produce packaging materials with two languages just for Canada doesn't represent a barrier? Or having to do different production runs to meet Canadian regulations vs. the US's. Or do you think different transportation regulations between Canada and the US don't create a non-tariff barrier to the movement of goods? Sure they do. But despite that, it's still more viable to ship many goods shorter distances across the border than it is to ship them across a giant country.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that as a resource producing country, we produce many things that our domestic market cannot possibly satisfy, which means inter-provincial trade making up a significant portion of goods movement for those things is impossible.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Why would that happen? Wouldn't they negotiate shared benefits across their territory? And your suggested policy for Canada going forward is "spite"?

The corridor would basically be the federal government declaring eminent domain over a stretch of land going coast to coast with the goal of using this land to build pipelines and other infrastructure.

While agreements could be made to compensate the owners of the land, I'd imagine the benefits would be far less than what the owners get now when an agreement is signed.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Why would that happen? Wouldn't they negotiate shared benefits across their territory? And your suggested policy for Canada going forward is "spite"?

What if they're unable to?
We are past the days of idealism.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by Makarov

That didn't really answer my question.

I never said that concerns for environment and aboriginal titles were meritless. Your question was bad to begin with

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

The corridor would basically be the federal government declaring eminent domain over a stretch of land going coast to coast with the goal of using this land to build pipelines and other infrastructure.

While agreements could be made to compensate the owners of the land, I'd imagine the benefits would be far less than what the owners get now when an agreement is signed.

OK but this is just you declaring things. No discussion has even been had, let alone an actual policy, so why are you deciding what would and wouldn't happen?


So essentially YOUR idea is to strip the rights of indigenous, and that's the solution? At what point in your plan do we re-open the constitution to remove indigenous rights?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Primarily, yes. Why would you pay to transport something 5,000km across Canada when you have a willing customer 500km away?

Yes, there are regulations that create barriers for domestic trade, but the same things exist to an even greater degree when it comes to international trade. Do think foreign producers having to produce packaging materials with two languages just for Canada doesn't represent a barrier? Or having to do different production runs to meet Canadian regulations vs. the US's. Or do you think different transportation regulations between Canada and the US don't create a non-tariff barrier to the movement of goods? Sure they do. But despite that, it's still more viable to ship many goods shorter distances across the border than it is to ship them across a giant country.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that as a resource producing country, we produce many things that our domestic market cannot possibly satisfy, which means inter-provincial trade making up a significant portion of goods movement for those things is impossible.

You are incredibly (to say the frickin' least) understating the market barriers in Canada that prohibit inter provincial trade.

There is a reason why economists are saying reducing these barriers could increase our GDP by up to 4%.

As someone who ships to the US on a daily basis, shipping the same goods in Canada is far more cost effective from every perspective possible.

Shipping the same pallet of goods from Winnipeg to Vancouver costs 40% less LTL, and 60% less inter modal than shipping from Winnipeg to any state that isn't North or South Dakota.

There are also less cross docking needs, no customs, export duties, other ridiculous Canada to US regulations, quicker transport, etc.

Growing interprovincial trade as much as possible in every sector in Canada would be a massive benefit for all Canadians. But yeah, there are obviously huge benefits to trading with the US. The exchange rate makes our products very appealing for starters.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

What if they're unable to?
We are past the days of idealism.

Then they'd do what they do now, which is block it. They'd go to the courts, and win.


I'm really sorry to throw reality around so casually, but we do actually have laws government must conform to, unless you also want to be ruled by a Trump-like entity?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

OK but this is just you declaring things. No discussion has even been had, let alone an actual policy, so why are you deciding what would and wouldn't happen?


So essentially YOUR idea is to strip the rights of indigenous, and that's the solution? At what point in your plan do we re-open the constitution to remove indigenous rights?

The energy corridor would remove the rights of all land owners where it is located, not just First Nations.

And yes, that is 100% what I am saying we should do.

Just like the railroads were built back in the day. This is what is needed now.

As for the complaining, I think the hand was shown while Coastal Link was built. Too bad now.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

The energy corridor would remove the rights of all land owners where it is located, not just First Nations.

And yes, that is 100% what I am saying we should do.

Just like the railroads were built back in the day. This is what is needed now.

As for the complaining, I think the hand was shown while Coastal Link was built. Too bad now.

Well I'm pretty happy to know you are not in government, because you can't just ignore our countries constitution. Your discussion and idea is unworkable, because it could not be accomplished due to pesky things like the courts, and rule of law. Try again.


You know, if you'd prefer to live somewhere like this, China is an option.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Then they'd do what they do now, which is block it. They'd go to the courts, and win.


I'm really sorry to throw reality around so casually, but we do actually have laws government must conform to, unless you also want to be ruled by a Trump-like entity?

Yeah we know what they'd do now.

We're talking about how to restrict that from happening while at the same time not actually striping all the land rights away.

An energy corridor would be the easiest way to accomplish it. It can be accomplished by securing the land via eminent domain.

The Canadian government has used eminent domain to obtain land for building railroads, which in the end way a massive net benefit for all Canadians.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well I'm pretty happy to know you are not in government, because you can't just ignore our countries constitution. Your discussion and idea is unworkable, because it could not be accomplished due to pesky things like the courts, and rule of law. Try again.


You know, if you'd prefer to live somewhere like this, China is an option.

You seem to have a quaint reality of how you THINK Canada is as a country.

NIMBY is going to force our hand. And its not just with pipelines. Massive electrical grid buildouts will be required to power the future, and we have no hope of accomplishing that without forcing it through.

And you do know what NIMBY means, right?