Israel declares war on Hamas

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I absolutely do feel for Palestinian children. It is definitely one of the toughest draws to be born into Gaza. I can't even imagine what it's like, and I've been living in two different countries that are at war recently.

Agree 100%.

How is the mood in Haifa? CTV had Heather Wright on assignment there last night reporting from a hospital that has beds set up in its underground parkade in case the worst occurs.

On the one hand elimination by the IDF of the threat from Hezbollah in Lebanon and Syria once and for all seems like a good plan given US firepower in the region.

On the other hand....

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I agree with this completely, but it's interesting how we draw different conclusions.

Through its actions, Israel is creating more of these men in a society that is now ruined (economically and otherwise) way more than it was two weeks ago. It feels like - by your own logic - Israel has made the problem and threat to their country much worse with their response.

If I have a mouse in my home I don't burn the house down. I hunt the mouse with traps, etc. That's how you kill terrorists, too. Kill the individuals (or capture and punish them). Destroying their country and ruining the lives of the civilians you've caged is completely counter to any rational long-term goals that will further Israel's interests. It's just so fkn boneheaded and murderous that it pisses me off.

Think of the USA again and their response to 9/11. How many poor souls died for nothing with that vile reaction? And in the end, two helicopters and a dozen guys cut the head off in one night mission based on good old fashioned spycraft and intelligence. To have learned nothing from that trillion dollar boondoggle and for Israel to repeat a similar tactical fk up is ridiculous beyond words. And their cheering squad around the world is equally insane.

The distinction is that the actual leadership of Hamas cannot be replaced easily. These are men who have been trained by Iran and the USSR to run armies. Foreign forces have invested billions of dollars and decades of time to get Hamas' leadership structure to where it is now. If you take them out, it's a serious loss.

The average Hamas foot soldier is barely trained and running amok. The commanders direct them and turn them into the lethal force they are. Hamas is also highly controlled from the top down, with the average soldier having no idea what's going on. Israel is finding literal maps on Hamas soldiers telling them specifically where to be and what to do.

If you take out the leadership, it would take decades to replace it.

Hamas members also had detailed maps of the Israelis towns they attacked, including the location of hiding spots for civilians, schools, medical centers, etc... They likely received these from Hamas operatives who'd been given work permits. Israel had loosened the blockade following the war in 2021, and allowed thousands of Gazans to work in Israel. A mistake they won't be making again.

Things won't repeat themselves, because the rules will be different going forward.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

The distinction is that the actual leadership of Hamas cannot be replaced easily. These are men who have been trained by Iran and the USSR to run armies. Foreign forces have invested billions of dollars and decades of time to get Hamas' leadership structure to where it is now. If you take them out, it's a serious loss.

The average Hamas foot soldier is barely trained and running amok. The commanders direct them and turn them into the lethal force they are. Hamas is also highly controlled from the top down, with the average soldier having no idea what's going on. Israel is finding literal maps on Hamas soldiers telling them specifically where to be and what to do.

If you take out the leadership, it would take decades to replace it.

Hamas members also had detailed maps of the Israelis towns they attacked, including the location of hiding spots for civilians, schools, medical centers, etc... They likely received these from Hamas operatives who'd been given work permits. Israel had loosened the blockade following the war in 2021, and allowed thousands of Gazans to work in Israel. A mistake they won't be making again.

Things won't repeat themselves, because the rules will be different going forward.

Okay.

I still don't see how flattening civilian centres and killing thousands of innocent people does anything to further Israel's interests (and that's totally ignoring the fact that it's just plain wrong to massacre civilians, anyway).

Obviously Hamas knows the lay of the land in Israel. FFS, I could write up a little map and plan an attack on Israel just using Google maps. Or here, a detailed paper map of Israel on Amazon for $15. Of course they had maps - that doesn't make them some advanced foe lol. It's basic AF.

This is a problem decades in the making. You can't bomb/invade your way out of it over the course of a couple months. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

But yeah, I agree with you again. Israel definitely made mistakes in the lead-up to the terrorist attack on them that they should not repeat in the future.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hamas members also had detailed maps of the Israelis towns they attacked, including the location of hiding spots for civilians, schools, medical centers, etc... They likely received these from Hamas operatives who'd been given work permits. Israel had loosened the blockade following the war in 2021, and allowed thousands of Gazans to work in Israel. A mistake they won't be making again.

Things won't repeat themselves, because the rules will be different going forward.

Another example of efforts to normalize relations with Gaza blowing up in Israel’s face.

The economy in Gaza is terrible, so Israel gives permits for Gaza residents to work in Israel and earn an income. Hamas infiltrates the workers and use this access to plan the murder of Israeli families in their homes. So now that avenue of improvement for Gaza is closed.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Another example of efforts to normalize relations with Gaza blowing up in Israel’s face.

The economy in Gaza is terrible, so Israel gives permits for Gaza residents to work in Israel and earn an income. Hamas infiltrates the workers and use this access to plan the murder of Israeli families in their homes. So now that avenue of improvement for Gaza is closed.

You seriously think they needed to infiltrate Israel to plan where to find Israelis in...Israel? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

You seriously think they needed to infiltrate Israel to plan where to find Israelis in...Israel? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

The attacks were so lethal because of the detailed knowledge that Hamas members had of the Israeli town they attacked. It's was a fast strike operation. They knew exactly where every point of resistance was going to be. Every hiding spot.

Instead of the a typical military advancement, where you enter a town, take out the resistance, cautiously move forward, etc... It was sending trucks full of troops directly to each point where every defence would be and overwhelming it. They knew exactly how many soldiers to send to every spot, and they were able to hit a huge range of civilians all at once.

[PepsiFree]

Hamas leadership, who we’ve previously been told are not even in Gaza, are now in fact in Gaza and so valuable that they will apparently take decades to replace… in an organization that has been described as a bunch of animals without an actual plan.

This same organization, described as not having a plan, planned this operation in such a sophisticated way (looked at a map), that they were able to know secret information like where a music festival was being held, where schools are, and where entire towns are, and that’s because Israel let their guard down… in, you know, having towns that exist.

Very interesting developments.

[burn_this_city]

This stuff is nonsense. The belief you can shoot and bomb your way out of this is absurd, how many times will they cut the head of the hydra before there is some kind of realization? Denying people self determination hasn't work, and it never will.

Israel has kept the status quo because they value settlement building and incremental expansion over a long term peace agreement and security. Time to end the last vestiges of western colonialism if you're serious about stopping future bloodshed.

[CaptainCrunch]

So then what's the solution, all we're hearing is simplified ceasefires and humanitarian corridors.

But I don't think its that easy anymore, this latest attack has changed the dynamic

1) After these attacks by Hamas followed by retaliation by Israel followed by a shaky ceasefire. Hamas rearms, re-recruits and they're back firing rockets and attacking within months. I doubt after this brutal attack by Hamas that Israel is going to accept any ceasefire without the return of the Hostages and the end of Hamas as a viable force. So we're at a log jam there.

2) Israel can't re-occupy Gaza after this, they left in 2005 and don't want to return to an occupation.

3) You can't have a cease fire without guaranteeing Israel doesn't get hit by Hamas again. So you need a peacekeeping force or occupying force with teeth to shut down Hamas is they rise again. You can't use the UN, beyond the fact that they're just bad at peacekeeping, Israel doesn't like or trust the UN, they won't believe that the UN cares about Israel's security. Also the UN won't do a peace enforcement mission, that involves things like attacking Hamas infrastructure or building to building engagements.

4) You can't use NATO, NATO countries won't want to put their men into the buzz saw that is Gaza. Also Palestinians won't want to see an occupation by what is seen as an American influenced solution.

5) You can kill as many Hamas members as you want, it doesn't matter, Hamas is like a stage 4 tumor, you might cure it for a while but it will spring up again. As long as you have billionaire leaders in Qatar and away from Gaza, they will continue to fund raise and continue to recruit and stir things up. And you simply can't start dropping precision guided munitions into countries like Qatar, or Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia or anywhere else that these scumbags shelter.

6) You can't ask the West Bank to govern and peacekeep. Hamas would butcher them to stay in power.

7) You can send as much humanitarian aid in as you want. Eventually that food and water and fuel and medicine will end up in the hands of Hamas.

8) Egypt needs to play a role, because Israel isn't going to open their borders to Gaza for a long time. Maybe Egypt needs to do what Vietnam did to Cambodia.

Hamas has to go, Israel's security has to be taken care of before they're going to stop leveling Gaza to destroy Hamas. You have to prevent outside groups from participating like Hezbollah.

A ceasefire without conditions that is being bandied about isn't going to fly because ceasefire to Hamas means rearm and kill us some more.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Another example of efforts to normalize relations with Gaza blowing up in Israel’s face.

The economy in Gaza is terrible, so Israel gives permits for Gaza residents to work in Israel and earn an income. Hamas infiltrates the workers and use this access to plan the murder of Israeli families in their homes. So now that avenue of improvement for Gaza is closed.

I don't think the situation would've ever improved in Gaza while Hamas is in charge. Another reason why getting rid of them is so critical, any normalization process is impossible.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/livebl...gaza-hospital/

It's getting more and more challenging to agree with Israeli tactics (assuming this turns out to be true).

[Language]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

So then what's the solution, all we're hearing is simplified ceasefires and humanitarian corridors.

But I don't think its that easy anymore, this latest attack has changed the dynamic

1) After these attacks by Hamas followed by retaliation by Israel followed by a shaky ceasefire. Hamas rearms, re-recruits and they're back firing rockets and attacking within months. I doubt after this brutal attack by Hamas that Israel is going to accept any ceasefire without the return of the Hostages and the end of Hamas as a viable force. So we're at a log jam there.

2) Israel can't re-occupy Gaza after this, they left in 2005 and don't want to return to an occupation.

3) You can't have a cease fire without guaranteeing Israel doesn't get hit by Hamas again. So you need a peacekeeping force or occupying force with teeth to shut down Hamas is they rise again. You can't use the UN, beyond the fact that they're just bad at peacekeeping, Israel doesn't like or trust the UN, they won't believe that the UN cares about Israel's security. Also the UN won't do a peace enforcement mission, that involves things like attacking Hamas infrastructure or building to building engagements.

4) You can't use NATO, NATO countries won't want to put their men into the buzz saw that is Gaza. Also Palestinians won't want to see an occupation by what is seen as an American influenced solution.

5) You can kill as many Hamas members as you want, it doesn't matter, Hamas is like a stage 4 tumor, you might cure it for a while but it will spring up again. As long as you have billionaire leaders in Qatar and away from Gaza, they will continue to fund raise and continue to recruit and stir things up. And you simply can't start dropping precision guided munitions into countries like Qatar, or Kuwait, or Saudi Arabia or anywhere else that these scumbags shelter.

6) You can't ask the West Bank to govern and peacekeep. Hamas would butcher them to stay in power.

7) You can send as much humanitarian aid in as you want. Eventually that food and water and fuel and medicine will end up in the hands of Hamas.

8) Egypt needs to play a role, because Israel isn't going to open their borders to Gaza for a long time. Maybe Egypt needs to do what Vietnam did to Cambodia.

Hamas has to go, Israel's security has to be taken care of before they're going to stop leveling Gaza to destroy Hamas. You have to prevent outside groups from participating like Hezbollah.

A ceasefire without conditions that is being bandied about isn't going to fly because ceasefire to Hamas means rearm and kill us some more.

All of this is spot on.

The only way this cycle of violence ever ends (at least in Gaza), is if some other Palestinian authority takes over governance of duties, renounces violence, and recognizes Israel’s right to exist.

Even then, this area would almost need to treated like Luxembourg, with a very small army that is primarily meant for internal security, so another extremist organization doesn’t prop up. Wishful thinking, but Gaza can then become a small modern enclave like Monaco or Singapore over many generations.

The West Bank is also its own beast that has to be looked at separately. It’s complicated as these areas are not connected. Why does it need it be a two state solution and not a three state solution, with some sort of special recognition between Gaza-Palestine and West Bank-Palestine for free flow?

This is all wishful thinking of course, but arguing over who is entitled to the land based on biblical context is irrelevant and at this point won’t have any effect on how any sort of settlement is reached, if ever.

Hamas needs to be wiped out fully, but it’s even more unclear what happens if that we’re to happen. While not entirely similar, we’ve seen what happened in Libya where Gaddafhi was removed, and now that country is in shambles with various factions and roaming bandits running amok. I’m sure Israel (and maybe even the Palestinian Authority?) are having closed door discussions on a post-Hamas plan, if they can get rid of them.


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[KootenayFlamesFan]

As someone watching everything from the sidelines, I gotta say, if that hospital bombing was done on purpose by Israel, that’s pretty gross. I hope some of the reports are wrong.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

As someone watching everything from the sidelines, I gotta say, if that hospital bombing was done on purpose by Israel, that’s pretty gross. I hope some of the reports are wrong.

It was a Hamas rocket that misfired.

Here it's falling down. You can see that's not coming from a plane.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130269

In this video you can see the 2nd rocket fired failing and veering to the left. It is believed to be the one that hit the hospital.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130284

[WCW Nitro]

Israel targets civilian buildings every war, and then comes up with the usual "Hamas was there"- of course it couldn't even detect that Hamas crossing the border but now somehow knows every single building Hamas fighters are in. With the blocking of food and water, I think more people are starting to realize that this not just about Hamas

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It was a Hamas rocket that misfired.

Here it's falling down. You can see that's not coming from a plane.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130269

In this video you can see the 2nd rocket fired failing and veering to the left. It is believed to be the one that hit the hospital.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130284

With all due respect, I'm not sure how one can conclude anything from those videos.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It was a Hamas rocket that misfired.

Here it's falling down. You can see that's not coming from a plane.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130269

In this video you can see the 2nd rocket fired failing and veering to the left. It is believed to be the one that hit the hospital.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130284

I have no idea what hit the building, but how does an unguided Hamas rocket take out a hospital? The rockets they use are mostly 10-20kg bombs, which is about 1/100th the size Israel has been using to take out even small buildings (they use multiple 2,000lb JDAMs for larger buildings).

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It was a Hamas rocket that misfired.

Here it's falling down. You can see that's not coming from a plane.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130269

In this video you can see the 2nd rocket fired failing and veering to the left. It is believed to be the one that hit the hospital.

https://t.me/news_kodkodgroup/130284

Can’t trust Al Jazeera, but why not trust a random Israeli source on Telegram.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

With all due respect, I'm not sure how one can conclude anything from those videos.

You aren’t supposed to. You’re supposed to use it to strengthen what you already think happened.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I have no idea what hit the building, but how does an unguided Hamas rocket take out a hospital? The rockets they use are mostly 10-20kg bombs, which is about 1/100th the size Israel has been using to take out even small buildings (they use multiple 2,000lb JDAMs for larger buildings).

If there are rockets stored nearby or below. I would not rule out any of the scenarios here. It very well could have been a misfire from Israel which unfortunately is the product of this type of warfare. It is terrible any way you slice if but both sides will be blaming eachother. Idk how you can verify what actually occurred here as of yet.