Minneapolis PD Suffocate Unarmed Black Man Who Later Dies in Hospital

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

For the murder, it absolutely does not.

It’s to provide discourse into who he was. I can appreciate that this could be perceived as victim blaming.

Drug use, seems to be the root of his problems, and subsequent criminal activity. His murder was broadcast so vividly to us, that our instincts were policing, and racial injustice.

Should that be ignored? No, but as critical thinkers, we should want to know the full story.

I think we're losing the plot a little bit.

George Floyd was killed by the police. Was race a motive. Maybe, maybe not. The statistics would indicate that race, at a minimum, plays a part in policing in more of the US, moreso in some areas than others.

I would argue that maybe the bigger issue is the culture of authoritarianism that pervades policing. They are trained to be aggressive when confronted. They are trained to take charge of the situation, usually through physical force or the treat of physical force. Historically, the police have fewer consequences that non-police for the same infraction- they are held to a lesser standard, whereas, as those who are entrusted to enforce the rule of law, they should be held to a higher standard. They are generally not trained in de-escalation which, not surprisingly, often escalates already tense situations.

But the public, through years of media manipulation and police propaganda have been lulled into the notion of the police being in charge and to do whatever they say or it could be bad for you. We find every excuse for the police because we've been fed the notion for decades that the life of a police officer is somehow more valuable than Joe Public. It's not, even if Joe Public is brandishing a knife, has a criminal record or is high AF. If someone is not breaking the law they should have no fear to stand up to police in a non-threatening manner. In too many places that would get you arrested, particularly if you're black or, in our case, indigenous.

Policing is an inherently dangerous profession and I understand how they might be on edge. But wouldn't you want to de-escalate violence in that case? Wouldn't you want the community to trust you, respect you and not fear you? Modern policing, at least in North America, too often relies on fear of the police. It seems to me that there are some obvious things that can be done to improve the culture of policing like better training, better recruitment, more effective oversight and less capitulation to the union. Obviously, these things alone won't fix everything but it sure would help.

George Floyd was no hero but he is a martyr. It would be a real shame if, after the dust has settled, his death and all of the violence and property damage results to going back to business as usual only to have this repeated 1 or 2 or 10 years from now.

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

For the murder, it absolutely does not.

It’s to provide discourse into who he was. I can appreciate that this could be perceived as victim blaming.

Drug use, seems to be the root of his problems, and subsequent criminal activity. His murder was broadcast so vividly to us, that our instincts were policing, and racial injustice.

Should that be ignored? No, but as critical thinkers, we should want to know the full story.

Clearly haven't been following this thread. The amygdala is still running the show is this thread.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Clearly haven't been following this thread. The amygdala is still running the show is this thread.

Relax, with the jabs. Read my posting history in this thread. It’s an easy search.

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Relax, with the jabs. Read my posting history in this thread. It’s an easy search.

Sorry man. Wasn't a jab at you. Shudda added an emoji.

Was only stating that the thread has really deteriorated (I probably contributed to that tbh) and rational thought really isn't at the forefront.

Apologies.

[cam_wmh]

All good, appreciate it. I understand how emotionally charged this topic is.

These are surreal times.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

For the murder, it absolutely does not.



It’s to provide discourse into who he was. I can appreciate that this could be perceived as victim blaming.



Drug use, seems to be the root of his problems, and subsequent criminal activity. His murder was broadcast so vividly to us, that our instincts were policing, and racial injustice.



Should that be ignored? No, but as critical thinkers, we should want to know the full story.

The entire situation is about the police murdering a guy. If they had a reason to arrest him and did it peacefully, there would be nothing occuring right now.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

That's weird. I guess if decking a 75 year old doesn't seem criminal the Buffalo pdf's description of the incident as a "trip and fall" would make sense.

there is a whole football field between criminal and tripping

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

News was reporting this morning that one of the officers was on his 3rd day, another on his 4th day on the job. I am not defending them but this would almost certainly play a factor into their efforts to stop the situation.

Personal anecdote time.

Between 1998 and 2002, while I was a university student, I had a part-time job in the Canadian Forces Reserves (1 night a week, 1 weekend a month, two months during the summer). If you recall the state of the Canadian Forces at that time, this was just a few years after the Somalia affair. In 1993, soldiers from the now-disbanded Canadian Airborne Regiment who were deployed overseas on a UN peacekeeping mission beat, tortured, and eventually murdered a Somali teenager while taunting their victim with racial slurs. They recorded their actions on video.

In the wake of the Somalia incident, the Chief of Defense Staff made it mandatory for all serving members, new recruits and experienced veterans alike, both regular forces and reservists, to complete the Standards for Harassment and Racism Prevention (SHARP) training. I myself took this course as part of my basic training before being assigned to an active unit. Twenty-two years later, I still remember being instructed that if I ever witnessed any of my uniformed comrades engaging in improper actions, like those airborne soldiers in Somalia, I had a moral and ethical duty to intervene, even against a superior officer. The training included a discussion about the Milgram experiment and taught us that we must overcome our natural tendency to show deference to authority if the situation calls for it.

Thankfully, without exception, every CF member I served alongside were true professionals, and I never had to put that training into practice. I do sometimes wonder how I would have reacted if I was put into a difficult situation, though. I'd like to think that in the heat of the moment I would have remembered my training and done the right thing.

Do police officers receive similar training before being assigned to active duty? If yes, then why didn't any of the three officers act appropriately? It no, WHY NOT?

[Crown Royal]

More than 1000 came out in Lethbridge for their BLM protest Yesterday
https://globalnews.ca/news/7029219/l...05xajRPbqSnmFU

[81MC]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Genuine question: how? None of that matters one bit to him being murdered by the police. This type of character assassination of the victim is very typical especially when a black man is murdered. Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Trayvon Martin, I can clearly recall the attempts to drag their past actions through the mud as if it means their murders were justified.

Unrelated history is trotted out like somehow it means it was deserved. Nothing in his past means he deserved to be murdered by the police. Nothing he did in his past means it was right that he was murdered by the police. Nothing he said meant he should be murdered by the police. Nothing means he deserved to be murdered by the police.

I don’t know man, “justice for Floyd” and all that... Justice for pointing a gun at a pregnant woman’s belly should probably be death. If someone did that to my wife when she was pregnant I would have zero issue with their death, however it was administered.

I can certainly see why protests in the name of a justice for a violent criminal would be infuriating. The black community suffers a lot of injustice, and has a lot more noble characters affected by it, than the names that get used (I would imagine that’s the frustration).

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

there is a whole football field between criminal and tripping

How so?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Personal anecdote time.

Between 1998 and 2002, while I was a university student, I had a part-time job in the Canadian Forces Reserves (1 night a week, 1 weekend a month, two months during the summer). If you recall the state of the Canadian Forces at that time, this was just a few years after the Somalia affair. In 1993, soldiers from the now-disbanded Canadian Airborne Regiment who were deployed overseas on a UN peacekeeping mission beat, tortured, and eventually murdered a Somali teenager while taunting their victim with racial slurs. They recorded their actions on video.

In the wake of the Somalia incident, the Chief of Defense Staff made it mandatory for all serving members, new recruits and experienced veterans alike, both regular forces and reservists, to complete the Standards for Harassment and Racism Prevention (SHARP) training. I myself took this course as part of my basic training before being assigned to an active unit. Twenty-two years later, I still remember being instructed that if I ever witnessed any of my uniformed comrades engaging in improper actions, like those airborne soldiers in Somalia, I had a moral and ethical duty to intervene, even against a superior officer. The training included a discussion about the Milgram experiment and taught us that we must overcome our natural tendency to show deference to authority if the situation calls for it.

Thankfully, without exception, every CF member I served alongside were true professionals, and I never had to put that training into practice. I do sometimes wonder how I would have reacted if I was put into a difficult situation, though. I'd like to think that in the heat of the moment I would have remembered my training and done the right thing.

Do police officers receive similar training before being assigned to active duty? If yes, then why didn't any of the three officers act appropriately? It no, WHY NOT?

Thanks for this.


I guess the questions would be:


1. Does the Canadian Forces Reserves still do this training consistently? Or was it just a reaction after an incident and now it's either died off or is different training to fit the times.

2. Does this training exist in US police forces, and specifically in this Minneaplois precinct.

3. Training and theory is easier said than done. Can a rookie tell if a 20 year veteran is doing something wrong. And what Chauvin did was so over the line, you don't think he's really going to do that.. at any moment he'll let go. According to Oling's post above, the guy who had been on duty 4 days did say something.

Again, we don't know everything, just the footage we've seen. I'm sure the before and afters are being saved for the trial.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

How so?

If you can't see there is alot of grey area between blatant criminal intent, which is the term I used and someone tripping; there is really no reason for me to proceed with this discussion.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

If you can't see there is alot of grey area between blatant criminal intent, which is the term I used and someone tripping; there is really no reason for me to proceed with this discussion.

Ok. You realize criminal intent and criminal are different though. You don't have to have intent to injure someone to be criminally responsible for your actions. I'm sure they didn't try to take out a 75 year old guy. But any reasonable person would know that you could easily injure or kill a senior citizen when you give them a double barrel shove backwards. So again, just so you can educate me, what the football field of difference you're talking about? Did this man trip? And are the people who pushed him innocent of any crime here?

[PsYcNeT]

Whoa

https://twitter.com/user/status/1268756644604887043

[getbak]

Robocop?

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by getbak

Robocop?

I'll take shooting dicks off rapists over the current MPD.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Ok. You realize criminal intent and criminal are different though. You don't have to have intent to injure someone to be criminally responsible for your actions. I'm sure they didn't try to take out a 75 year old guy. But any reasonable person would know that you could easily injure or kill a senior citizen when you give them a double barrel shove backwards. So again, just so you can educate me, what the football field of difference you're talking about? Did this man trip? And are the people who pushed him innocent of any crime here?

The dude approached riot cops that are going to be on on edge with a helmet in his hand which could be easily seen as a weapon. Pushing him back in that situation is not criminal, age doesn't stop someone from being a threat. Do I think there should be some discipline? Absolutely as it was a poor decision with an awful result. This is getting more outrage than the two college students tazed in their car and dragged out. More outrage than a child being pepper sprayed. Why? Because he's a white boomer.

[cam_wmh]

If it were due to any colour it was the red blood pooling, after he hit his head.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Thanks for this.


I guess the questions would be:


1. Does the Canadian Forces Reserves still do this training consistently? Or was it just a reaction after an incident and now it's either died off or is different training to fit the times.

.

It was the whole of the Forces that did this training, Reg/Res, Air/Land/Sea.

The Forces now are completely different than the Forces I joined in '89 (left in 97). On my tour we had a guy sent home. The reason in the ranks was because it came out that he was gay. He did his job, kept his #### wired tight. Was he gay, was it a rumour who knows, but we believed it.

I have friends that are still in, we joined together. In some ways the is a much better place because of the troubles in the early to mid 90's (the Somalia Incident was the most public, but there were tonnes more).

I can tell you that this would never have happened when I was in:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...flag-1.1313740