Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's late July.

This was the only option he had. It was move Neal for Lucic, or bring Neal back. That's pretty obvious given the deal itself.

What would you do?

Tell Neal he better be in shape at camp, show some improvement in the first 15-20 games of the season while we explore trading you. Don't sell at the absolute lowest possible point for not even the lowest possible value, a player that also will negatively impact things on the ice.

If Neal wanted a trade, he can't expect that the GM will just jump at his wish and trade him for the worst contract in the league in mid July. He signed a 5 year deal. Toughen up princess. Play your 3rd line minutes when and where Peters tells you to and we'll trade you when we get a deal that makes sense.

If Peters and the rest of the team wanted Neal gone, they can't expect that the GM will just jump at their wish and send Neal away for the worst contract in the league. Sorry Johnny, but you'll have to have Neal on the bench a little while longer until we get a deal that makes sense.

If there was no other deal out there now, then sit on your hands. It's not like Lucic was going anywhere, and this deal would still be there for the next 3 years.

The brainthrust wanted to get tougher is another issue, because perhaps they tried to keep Hathaway and he wouldn't stay, or perhaps they've tried to acquire other players and it hasn't panned out, but it's only July. I can't believe there is no one out there that's attainable, either a vet or not, that can offer toughness for less than a buyout/trade proof $5.25M x 4, so Lucic becomes your target.

[Strange Brew]

Guess we better hope Bill and the lads get along with Lucic. Won’t be any getting out of this one.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Guess we better hope Bill and the lads get along with Lucic. Won’t be any getting out of this one.

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

There are always options IMO.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

One of the things that has mystified me for years is how Tod Button has a job, honestly. I do not (and am not) like calling for someone's head, but years and years and years of utter mediocrity (at best) in the draft, and basically one late-round home-run in Gaudreau, and a monster pile of utter misses. This is amateur rather than pro scouting, but obviously the team puts only so much into scouting, and... I think arguably it ain't enough.



Somebody isn't doing enough research about who gets brought in, and the UFA signings have been... honestly pretty bad. "Oh I knew that guy back in Hanoi in 68, he's real solid." doesn't get the job done.

Utter misses?

Valimaki, Kylington, Andersson are all great picks.

Mangiapane, Dube look to be good picks.

Jury’s still out on Jankowski’s ceiling

Still too early to tell with guys like Pospisil, Petterson, Phillips.

Very interested to see if Parsons rebounds this year.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Was it? By all accounts Neal was embarrassed for his performance last season and has been working out hard with Gary Roberts. Sounds like a guy that was putting in as much effort as possible in the offseason to ensure he performed better next season. So lets say in year two he rebounds nicely to the point where even if he's not a great fit with the coach that that everyone is a pro about it and with three years left on the deal coming off a bounce back year that contract is maybe more admissible for another team to accept in a trade where the Flames retain some salary and take on some salary back. There's little doubt if all else fails Lucic would still be available next offseason and by then maybe Holland is even more desperate to unload him to the point were Treliving can dictate the return.

I just think once you sign a player for 5 years you owe it to the process to at least give it a 2nd season before declaring it a failure. I keep coming back to believing that the GM felt the coach and player could not coexist and in his mind the player had to go and if that's the case I guess I can understand it but then shame on him and his pro scouts for handing out that contract to a player that really didn't see eye to eye with the coach from day one. There needs to be some evaluation with pro scouting department with the Brouwer and Neal contracts being immediate poor fits in the locker room. It's one thing to sign players that don't live up to their contracts but bringing in square pegs for round holes tells me some people aren't doing enough homework.

These 2 contracts have really set the Flames back and now have become an anchor. The 2 players in question basically took a vacation while playing on the team with assurances they would get better. We were fooled, "twice (actually 3 times)". Lots of teams have players that get close to the finals each year but Neal is using that as an excuse for his poor performance. It would have been better to bring up a young player or have the scouts do a better job. At the very least Neal should have been used as an example and benched for all those poor performances,

I hope the Flames think about what they are doing by giving an unmerited spot to a floater all season long. Those 2 guys played with Bennett how is he supposed to show progress when he had to play with 2 guys with no give a crap meter? Maybe it is high time the Flames give Bennett some quality line mates so he can at least take his game to the next level.

Flames have done a lot of good things but making the same mistake over is perplexing.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Every GM makes the best decision they can though, even the awful ones.

There are always options IMO.

You're not wrong. I think Treliving made the best decision he could given the circumstances (of his own making). Sure there are other possible options, but given he has more information available to him than any of us do I think he felt it necessary to remove Neal from the roster.

At least that's how I'm looking at it. How bad must it have been, or how compelling the reasons, to take on Lucic?

[I_H8_Crawford]

I understand and agree with the reasoning for swapping the players.

My biggest issue is the fact that one contract is 1,000,000x worst than the other, being buy out proof, and a NMC. For taking on that extra risk the flames got nothing for it. Nothing.

If the contacts were the exact same I would have no issue with the move. But the fact that the flames took on extra risk for nothing from their provincial rival... That stinks and is a massive loss for them.

Those saying the NMC is fine, he will waive... Don't forget the flames had permission to trade Iginla to Boston... Until they didn't. Unless it is formal in writing it IS a risk.

Those saying "it's 2 years down the road, no need to worry now" I hope none of you are ones that bitch about the flames trading draft picks because those are all down the road too, so no worries right???

Brutal trade just on the basis that the flames helped the Oilers, took on extra risk, and got nothing to show for that.

[Titan]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I really love Darren Haynes' take. Don't think of Lucic as replacing Neal, Lucic is replacing Hathaway. Dube will be the Neal replacement

I could be Neal's replacement. Dube is a massive upgrade on me.

[TheScorpion]

NMC concerns aside (which I really do think Treliving has to have considered), what exactly makes Lucic's deal a million times worse than Neal's?

Buyout proof, who cares. Buyouts should be avoided anyway whenever possible. (Cough Michael Stone, don't do it!)

Is Lucic worse than Neal? I'm not so sure. Does Lucic have a role in this team? Absolutely -- defensive specialist who hits and plays PP2 net-front. Neal had nothing nearly that defined.

[SeanCharles]

The options Brad had were:

1) Buyout Neal have his cap on the books for 8 years
2) Package him with a valuable asset, like Kylington, and get nothing of value back
3) Trade him for Ericksson
4) Trade him for Lucic, adding physicality, grit, hard hitting, determination into the bottom 6 mix

I dont know about you but when you consider all those options I think Tre made the best choice. Especially considering he saved half a mill in cap space to boot.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

Tell Neal he better be in shape at camp, show some improvement in the first 15-20 games of the season while we explore trading you. Don't sell at the absolute lowest possible point for not even the lowest possible value, a player that also will negatively impact things on the ice.



If Neal wanted a trade, he can't expect that the GM will just jump at his wish and trade him for the worst contract in the league in mid July. He signed a 5 year deal. Toughen up princess. Play your 3rd line minutes when and where Peters tells you to and we'll trade you when we get a deal that makes sense.



If Peters and the rest of the team wanted Neal gone, they can't expect that the GM will just jump at their wish and send Neal away for the worst contract in the league. Sorry Johnny, but you'll have to have Neal on the bench a little while longer until we get a deal that makes sense.



If there was no other deal out there now, then sit on your hands. It's not like Lucic was going anywhere, and this deal would still be there for the next 3 years.



The brainthrust wanted to get tougher is another issue, because perhaps they tried to keep Hathaway and he wouldn't stay, or perhaps they've tried to acquire other players and it hasn't panned out, but it's only July. I can't believe there is no one out there that's attainable, either a vet or not, that can offer toughness for less than a buyout/trade proof $5.25M x 4, so Lucic becomes your target.

Sure, in a vacuum what you’re saying makes sense. But what if you told Neal to “suck it up and play your 3rd mine minutes” and he’s like “screw that, I have a guaranteed contract, I’ll just continue with my don’t give a #### attitude.”

You really want a guy like that on the roster? What kind of return on a trade are you going to get for an underperforming, grumpy player that’s already weeks into the season? And sure you could waive or buy him out but then you’re losing him for nothing. At least Lucic, while overpaid, fills a need here.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by the2bears

You're not wrong. I think Treliving made the best decision he could given the circumstances (of his own making). Sure there are other possible options, but given he has more information available to him than any of us do I think he felt it necessary to remove Neal from the roster.

At least that's how I'm looking at it. How bad must it have been, or how compelling the reasons, to take on Lucic?

It was this bad. You have 4 years left of a guy who doesn’t fit well with the team. Could not accept a demotion from top 6, and would not accept the role the coach gave him.
The bottom line is that Neal has to go. Bring on Looch!

I am a believer that you need grit in a lineup. No sense in having the second toughest guy on the ice. Get the toughest (I know there are one or 2 tougher in the league).

[Titan]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Its not hard to find quotes that the earth is flat, what’s your point?

This whole ordeal is a cautionary tale in confirmation bias...a lesson that could/should have been learned after the exact same thing happened with Brouwer (even down to the leadership argument).

I love when Bingo gets involved. Excitedly waiting for the paste eating troll comment. I can feel it coming...

[GGG]

I’d have picked buyout Neal, sign Ferland. Eat the last 4 years of the 2 million cap penalty when roster needs rework anyway.

[bigrangy]

If you’d give me only one action of Treliving’s to take back, it wouldn’t be this trade. It wouldn’t even be signing Neal in the first place.

It would come down to the two worst moves.

Hiring Gulutzan (bad at the time, awful in hindsight)

Trading for Hamonic (ok at the time, awful in hindsight)

I don’t think Lucic will turn out nearly as bad as either of these moves have.

[Poe969]

If you think getting hamonic is a bigger mistake (not a mistake at all imo) than getting Brouwer, you might not be in line with reality.

[bigrangy]

Originally Posted by Poe969

If you think getting hamonic is a bigger mistake (not a mistake at all imo) than getting Brouwer, you might not be in line with reality.

The Flames traded a huge haul of picks for a guy that was supposed to help them win the big games. So now the Flames have won 1 playoff game with him on the team and the player taken with the pick they traded for him will 100% be a more effective player than him by the time the next playoffs come around.

It was an ok move at the time but has turned out completely awful for the Flames.

[Bourque's Twin]

What if the Flames signed Ferland and bought out Neal?
Total cost would’ve been $3.5 + $1.916 = $5.416
Lucic is $5.25

For an extra 200K and the burden of $1.916 on the books years 5-8, the Flames could’ve had Ferland instead of Lucic.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

These people didn't make stuff up. They chose to believe what was reported on. Didn't fit in Calgary, maybe didn't fit anywhere prior, I honestly don't know. But it wouldn't take a lot of googling to find comments about Neal and leadership and having won, and veteran presence and tough to play against.

You didn't buy it. That's great.

But it's not hard to find good guy Neal quotes from previous teams. Friedman was all over the people love this guy stuff when Calgary added him.

I don’t know about the Friedman stuff. I specifically remember him saying that Neal’s act of carrying himself like a superstar wasn’t for everyone, but Calgary thought it was what they needed. It was a radio interview so don’t think I can find a quote but not making it up.

[Flamenspiel]

I don’t get the Ferland love, he is as much a question mark as Neal or Lucic. He has not shown that he can stay in the lineup while playing tough. When he plays without aggression he is completely ineffective. When he turns it up a notch he ends up in the dressing room.

To me, Ferland is in survival mode, he is not going to risk another concussion and will coast his way through the next 4 years. On the other hand you can see on you tube that even in clips from the last two years Lucic is still playing a very heavy game.