Israel declares war on Hamas

[ResAlien]

So if I’m the believe the AP News they’re saying Israel told Palestinians to flee to southern gaza and then bombed that same area. Seems kind of uncool to do that

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pa...95509cab95b80c

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Then every war in mankind history is genocide. Name at least one war when an army stopped fighting because opponent had lost too many of their civilians.

Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The amount of Palestinian casualties that are ‘acceptable’ is an incredibly difficult question to answer. From Israel’s perspective, they might just think they are going to accomplish their goal of eliminating Hamas (or they surrender) no matter what the casualties are.

If Hamas believes that there is a limit, they will have the human shields out in full force, trying to get to that number sooner, to save their own forces. I guess even if Hamas doesn’t think there is a limit, but there are lots of civilian lives lost, maybe there is increased outside pressure on Israel to call a cease fire.

Fighting a terrorist group just is not fair, when they don’t value life over death the way you do.

It’s definitely not fair, and it’s difficult, and lives are going to be lost regardless of what you do.

But we have maintain some moral standard. We can’t sit around and say “Look at all these dead babies Hamas killed! This is a tragedy! This is horrible!” and then shrug when the cost of doing war is the “good” side killing 20x more children.

It’s difficult to answer “how many,” sure. But it shouldn’t be as difficult as it is to feel the same thing for a Palestinian child that people felt for an Israeli child. And, honestly, I think it’s very difficult for some people and I don’t know why.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Their aim with those measures could be to punish the population of Gaza as revenge for the Oct 7 attacks. Or Israel is trying to compel civilians in Gaza to leave in order to make the ground invasion less costly for both the IDF and for civilians. Probably both motivations are at play.

The diplomatic wrangling behind the scenes over opening Rafah and admitting Palestinian refugees into Egypt is intense. Israel wants as many Palestinians as possible to vacate Gaza, while Egypt very much does not want to import a radicalized refugee population into the country. Presumably, the U.S. is trying to broker a deal.

Dude, they can't leave. How do people not understand there. Where the hell are they supposed to go?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...er-2023-10-15/

The journey to the south is also fraught with risks as Israel hits back at Hamas after the Palestinian militant group launched a surprise attack on Israel, the bloodiest since the 1973 Arab-Israeli war.

Israel has already unleashed the fiercest bombing ever on the impoverished narrow Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world. And far worse is expected, prompting residents to seek safe shelter

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I don't recall me ever asking anyone to get me Canadian citizenship. But if someone suggested that, I appreciate it. I don't see how posting on Calgary Flames message board about wars on the other side of the world could amount to seeking hype. There are places where those wars would be at least main topics.

It was more a comment made in jest. I just meant that you seem like a good citizen willing to defend the culture and way of life. Canada can use more people like you.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

So was Japan-USA war a genocide? Or should I say two genocides? Japanese were killing large numbers of Americans and Americans were killing large numbers of Japanese. Was bombing Heroshima an act of genocide? The Pearl harbor attack?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Hamas is not a regular army and it doesn't fight like one, at all. It's more like a dogfight with no rules.

Originally Posted by Pointman

Full blockade and not letting aid in is a leverage to force the release of hostages.

This is the kind of contradiction and pro-Israel war monger stuff that’s hard to believe. Hamas is not a regular army and plays by no rules. We’re told this time and time again, and that they do not care about Palestinian civilians. That seems entirely well-established.

However, we’re also supposed to believe, apparently, that Hamas cares about Palestinian civilians to the point that they would release hostages to avoid Israel punishing Palestinian civilians, and that this excuses the horrific collective punishment civilians are enduring by Israel.

It just doesn’t make a lot of sense. Either Hamas doesn’t play by the rules and doesn’t care about civilians and Israel is punishing Palestinians knowing Hamas won’t care, or Hamas does care about civilians and there is some reason to believe they would release hostages to help civilians.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Dude, they can't leave. How do people not understand there. Where the hell are they supposed to go?

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...er-2023-10-15/

You are mistaking Gaza City with whole Gaza strip. Israel wants civilians to leave Gaza city and go to the south of the strip.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This is the kind of contradiction and pro-Israel war monger stuff that’s hard to believe. Hamas is not a regular army and plays by no rules. We’re told this time and time again, and that they do not care about Palestinian civilians. That seems entirely well-established.

However, we’re also supposed to believe, apparently, that Hamas cares about Palestinian civilians to the point that they would release hostages to avoid Israel punishing Palestinian civilians, and that this excuses the horrific collective punishment civilians are enduring by Israel.

It just doesn’t make a lot of sense. Either Hamas doesn’t play by the rules and doesn’t care about civilians and Israel is punishing Palestinians knowing Hamas won’t care, or Hamas does care about civilians and there is some reason to believe they would release hostages to help civilians.

Gaza population includes Hamas fighters themselves. Including those who are directly taking hostages. So while Hamas may not care about civilians deaths, they should at least care about their own members, or in some cases literally about themselves.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s definitely not fair, and it’s difficult, and lives are going to be lost regardless of what you do.

But we have maintain some moral standard. We can’t sit around and say “Look at all these dead babies Hamas killed! This is a tragedy! This is horrible!” and then shrug when the cost of doing war is the “good” side killing 20x more children.

It’s difficult to answer “how many,” sure. But it shouldn’t be as difficult as it is to feel the same thing for a Palestinian child that people felt for an Israeli child. And, honestly, I think it’s very difficult for some people and I don’t know why.

I absolutely do feel for Palestinian children. It is definitely one of the toughest draws to be born into Gaza. I can't even imagine what it's like, and I've been living in two different countries that are at war recently.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Personally, I've found this thread beneficial to understand some nuances and history of the conflict I previously wasn't aware of. Beyond some emotional outbursts, there has been some very useful and powerful arguments from both sides.

You know what's really not helpful? Adding a comment that others shouldn't comment on the conflict. I think everyone recognizes we aren't bringing peace to the Middle-East. Similarly, none of us are fixing the Flames defensive coverages, inflation, or Dion's habit of re-posting Funny pictures. It's a message board. If the criteria is we shouldn't discuss it if we can't fix it then we shouldn't be discussing almost anything.

Woaa, I'm not prepared to give up on that.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Personally, I've found this thread beneficial to understand some nuances and history of the conflict I previously wasn't aware of. Beyond some emotional outbursts, there has been some very useful and powerful arguments from both sides.

You know what's really not helpful? Adding a comment that others shouldn't comment on the conflict. I think everyone recognizes we aren't bringing peace to the Middle-East. Similarly, none of us are fixing the Flames defensive coverages, inflation, or Dion's habit of re-posting Funny pictures. It's a message board. If the criteria is we shouldn't discuss it if we can't fix it then we shouldn't be discussing almost anything.

I see this as a circular mud-slinging conversation, from all sides.

It's pretty indicative of why this is all still going on.

Both sides are so deeply entrenched in their views that they aren't willing to acknowledge the validity of the other sides views/actions.

Honestly, it's kind of a waste of time IMO.

I think the only way this is solved or resolved is through a catastrophic result for one of the parties involved.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I see this as a circular mud-slinging conversation, from all sides.

It's pretty indicative of why this is all still going on.

Both sides are so deeply entrenched in their views that they aren't willing to acknowledge the validity of the other sides views/actions.

Honestly, it's kind of a waste of time IMO.

I think the only way this is solved or resolved is through a catastrophic result for one of the parties involved.

A thread can be educating and valuable even if nobody will change their views. Conversely, if I change my view right now and declare that Palestinians are right all along, it wouldn't really add much to the thread.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

So if I’m the believe the AP News they’re saying Israel told Palestinians to flee to southern gaza and then bombed that same area. Seems kind of uncool to do that

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pa...95509cab95b80c

Israel is hitting Hamas' leadership. The bombing in the North is far more widespread, as that is where the rockets are being launched from and where most of the military infrastructure and tunnels are. However, Hamas still has military centers and leaders are hiding in the South. Israel has never stated they are giving Hamas a free pass to hang out in the South, only that there will be less widescale bombing there. Israel has a specific list of people they are taking out.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Gaza population includes Hamas fighters themselves. Including those who are directly taking hostages. So while Hamas may not care about civilians deaths, they should at least care about their own members, or in some cases literally about themselves.

Hamas is made up of a group of chicken hawks. Grey haired politicians sending young men on suicide missions while they collect millions (and sometimes billions). These young men grow up in a conservative society in economic shambles. They get indoctrinated into a system where they are told that throwing their lives away to protect the interest of millionaires will guarantee them a paradise filled with virgin concubines. Often it's just a matter of being told they will finally get laid in heaven.

No, Hamas leadership do not care about their own members.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Pointman

So was Japan-USA war a genocide? Or should I say two genocides? Japanese were killing large numbers of Americans and Americans were killing large numbers of Japanese. Was bombing Heroshima an act of genocide? The Pearl harbor attack?

Was the Japan-USA war at risk of wiping an entire people off the map?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Was the Japan-USA war at risk of wiping an entire people off the map?

Dropping two nuclear bombs on the island nation? And probably dropping more if they didn't surrender. I would say, the risk of wiping Japanese off the map was about as much, as risk of wiping entire Palestine nation off the map by bombing only Gaza and not West Bank.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s definitely not fair, and it’s difficult, and lives are going to be lost regardless of what you do.

But we have maintain some moral standard. We can’t sit around and say “Look at all these dead babies Hamas killed! This is a tragedy! This is horrible!” and then shrug when the cost of doing war is the “good” side killing 20x more children.

It’s difficult to answer “how many,” sure. But it shouldn’t be as difficult as it is to feel the same thing for a Palestinian child that people felt for an Israeli child. And, honestly, I think it’s very difficult for some people and I don’t know why.

Someone who makes the actual decisions on what targets get hit in Gaza probably justifies it to himself that if there are casualties now, and they eliminate Hamas, there will be less casualties in the future. When, in reality, there will likely be another group that takes over from Hamas, and round and round we go.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hamas is made up of a group of chicken hawks. Grey haired politicians sending young men on suicide missions while they collect millions (and sometimes billions). These young men grow up in a conservative society in economic shambles. They get indoctrinated into a system where they are told that throwing their lives away to protect the interest of millionaires will guarantee them a paradise filled with virgin concubines. Often it's just a matter of being told they will finally get laid in heaven.

No, Hamas leadership do not care about their own members.

They actually care a bit, as they constantly demand to release Palestinian prisoners. The exchange of Palestinian prisoners for Israel hostages happened at least once. There were also reports, that the reason why Hamas took hostages in Oct 7 is because they planned to exchange them for Palestinian prisoners. So now they will have to exchange them for water and power instead.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gila...soner_exchange

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hamas is made up of a group of chicken hawks. Grey haired politicians sending young men on suicide missions while they collect millions (and sometimes billions). These young men grow up in a conservative society in economic shambles. They get indoctrinated into a system where they are told that throwing their lives away to protect the interest of millionaires will guarantee them a paradise filled with virgin concubines. Often it's just a matter of being told they will finally get laid in heaven.

No, Hamas leadership do not care about their own members.

I agree with this completely, but it's interesting how we draw different conclusions.

Through its actions, Israel is creating more of these men in a society that is now ruined (economically and otherwise) way more than it was two weeks ago. It feels like - by your own logic - Israel has made the problem and threat to their country much worse with their response.

If I have a mouse in my home I don't burn the house down. I hunt the mouse with traps, etc. That's how you kill terrorists, too. Kill the individuals (or capture and punish them). Destroying their country and ruining the lives of the civilians you've caged is completely counter to any rational long-term goals that will further Israel's interests. It's just so fkn boneheaded and murderous that it pisses me off.

Think of the USA again and their response to 9/11. How many poor souls died for nothing with that vile reaction? And in the end, two helicopters and a dozen guys cut the head off in one night mission based on good old fashioned spycraft and intelligence. To have learned nothing from that trillion dollar boondoggle and for Israel to repeat a similar tactical fk up is ridiculous beyond words. And their cheering squad around the world is equally insane.