[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

It's pretty clear that fans and the analytics community value Hamilton much higher than NHL GMs do. We can also see that in the Simmonds+ for Hamilton rumours, since I would have thought Hamilton had much more value than any of these rumoured deals imply.

I don't think anyone is going to deny that. But the mark of a good GM when it comes to trading is identifying inefficiencies / misvaluations in the marketplace. The professional hockey community is far from perfect. That's what we are discussing.

If Simmonds plus Sanheim was the ask I could have lived with that trade.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by icecube

I wouldn't go that far, unless unforeseen injuries play a roll.

Considering the concussion trouble Ferland has had already, I'd say the injury that could put him out of the league is entirely foreseeable.

[GullFoss]

The more I read about Hamilton the more I believe the problem was one of two things:

1) Compete level and intensity. Aka JayBo. Does anyone believe Hamilton had the same intensity or compete as Johnny, Monahan, tkachuk, backlund or gio? Just as much talent though, maybe more.

2) Willingness to get better at defensive side of game. Aka phaneuf.

Both the above players (JayBo and Dion) were traded and wore out their welcome. And both players ultimately failed to ever reach their potential. I'd say both had good careers but both disappointed. Talent only takes you so far. The best players have an elite mix of talent, compete level and dedication to the craft.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

If you have a can find the clip give it a listen. The character thing was brought up by Pinder who sounds like he's not a fan of the GM or his moves.

Yeah, listened to the replay last night on the road and it was a little embarrassing. Pinder was leading Dellow around the whole time trying to feed his narrative...he may as well have just talked to himself and kept patting himself on the back.

I like Pinder but need to stop listening to him when he is discussing this trade.

[EldrickOnIce]

It's been said a few times, a few different ways but if you were to name two players on the Flames who benefitted the most by whom they were playing with, the top 2 names would be Ferland and Hamilton, imo.
We'll see I guess. I love(d) Dougieand have the greatest respect for his off ice work with kids, but was really frustrated at times with his play.

[Toonage]

lol..even John Shannon giving Pinder the gears this morning for his being negative on the deal.

[8sPOT]

I've been finding Pinder to be really annoying lately. All his talk on stats, numbers, goals, stats. We shipped out more goals than we brought in etc.

Really Pinder? So Ferland is now a 20 goal guy? And Lindholm never will be? I just dont understand why you'd only look at numbers, and only look at last season as the basis of a trade decision. I was always able to deal with his condescending way he presents his opinions but this just situation and the way he approaches it just comes off as so snobby.

To me, Fox wasn't going to sign so yeah ship him out. Ferland is a bubble top 6 player, but that type of guy is easy to find. Dont tell me he's a 20 goal player because he just isn't.

Hamilton clearly was not meshing with his teammates and offensive stats aside he was prone to take dumb penalties, wasnt a defensive stalwart by any means and his size was maybe useful for boxing out guys but he was by no means physical.

We get back a legit top 6 right hand shot forward. Who is 23. As well as a 21 year old stud d man who could end up a better overall player than Hamilton anyways.

I think this is a great hockey trade and the team is better now than it was before the trade. IMO.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

I've been finding Pinder to be really annoying lately. All his talk on stats, numbers, goals, stats. We shipped out more goals than we brought in etc.

Really Pinder? So Ferland is now a 20 goal guy? And Lindholm never will be? I just dont understand why you'd only look at numbers, and only look at last season as the basis of a trade decision. I was always able to deal with his condescending way he presents his opinions but this just situation and the way he approaches it just comes off as so snobby.

To me, Fox wasn't going to sign so yeah ship him out. Ferland is a bubble top 6 player, but that type of guy is easy to find. Dont tell me he's a 20 goal player because he just isn't.

Hamilton clearly was not meshing with his teammates and offensive stats aside he was prone to take dumb penalties, wasnt a defensive stalwart by any means and his size was maybe useful for boxing out guys but he was by no means physical.

We get back a legit top 6 right hand shot forward. Who is 23. As well as a 21 year old stud d man who could end up a better overall player than Hamilton anyways.

I think this is a great hockey trade and the team is better now than it was before the trade. IMO.

You can count the number of players that had the number of goals and hits Ferland had last season on one hand. He is a rare player.

I don't understand how this forum can be so receptive to the idea of signing somebody like Reaves but act like Ferland wasn't a physical asset to this team.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

I've been finding Pinder to be really annoying lately. All his talk on stats, numbers, goals, stats. We shipped out more goals than we brought in etc.

Really Pinder? So Ferland is now a 20 goal guy? And Lindholm never will be? I just dont understand why you'd only look at numbers, and only look at last season as the basis of a trade decision. I was always able to deal with his condescending way he presents his opinions but this just situation and the way he approaches it just comes off as so snobby.

To me, Fox wasn't going to sign so yeah ship him out. Ferland is a bubble top 6 player, but that type of guy is easy to find. Dont tell me he's a 20 goal player because he just isn't.

Hamilton clearly was not meshing with his teammates and offensive stats aside he was prone to take dumb penalties, wasnt a defensive stalwart by any means and his size was maybe useful for boxing out guys but he was by no means physical.

We get back a legit top 6 right hand shot forward. Who is 23. As well as a 21 year old stud d man who could end up a better overall player than Hamilton anyways.

I think this is a great hockey trade and the team is better now than it was before the trade. IMO.

Only he was - he hit 20 goals. Also, he is not 'easy to find' unless you are ONLY talking about being a 20 goal scorer. You still have to overpay on the UFA market for a 20 goal scorer.


Ferland was more than that though. He was a skilled physical player with a wicked shot, a great skater, had great IQ and was a beast along the boards. He showed that he is ABLE to play with good players - whether he is a line driver or a complimentary player, he showed that he is capable of playing with skilled guys and fit in. That has value.


I don't know why people are so quick to dismiss Ferland's abilities. Now the Flames are trying to sign a guy like Reaves - a guy you will NEVER see on the top line - so that they can replace some of what Ferland brought to the team. Ferland does carry some value. Powerforwards in this league are not easy to acquire. One dimensional 20 goal scorers are easier, but guys that can come in and plug a few holes carry more value.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

I think this is a great hockey trade and the team is better now than it was before the trade. IMO.

The team might be better in the long run, but there is absolutely no way they are better today than they were on Saturday morning. We gave up the best defenseman and arguably the best forward in the deal for possibly the best defenseman and probably will become the best forward.

It's really impossible to judge a true winner right now, because as you said this was a hockey deal and the Flames gambled on potential, but I don't think for a second the team is now better at this point in time.

[Roof-Daddy]

For me, I really liked Ferland and what he brought. I just don't think he brought it consistently enough. I also think he shied away from fighting for whatever reason, and that was also frustrating at times. After seeing what he could do in that Van series a few years ago, he just always kind of left me wanting a bit more.

Same can be said for Hamilton in a lot of ways. Loved what he brought offensively, and I didn't think he was terrible defensively either but I was waiting for him to develop into a stud 25 minute per night, play in any situation, mean all round #1 defenseman. I'm thinking that might never happen though because maybe he doesn't have the personality to become that. I dunno. Although I appreciated what he brought, he like Ferland, kind of left you wanting more.

[Flames_F.T.W]

Ferland was a year away from a big pay day and absolutely disappeared down the stretch. 2 goals in the second half of the season for someone in the top 6 is horrifying. I don't think anyone would argue that he was a rare player, combining skill with size. But he was invisible far too many nights. In a perfect world, we would have kept Ferland. But I also think we sold him while his value was at an absolute high.

[keenan87]

Has Hamilton said anything interesting in his interviews after being traded?

[rhino]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

The team might be better in the long run, but there is absolutely no way they are better today than they were on Saturday morning. We gave up the best defenseman and arguably the best forward in the deal for possibly the best defenseman and probably will become the best forward.

It's really impossible to judge a true winner right now, because as you said this was a hockey deal and the Flames gambled on potential, but I don't think for a second the team is now better at this point in time.

Gave up the higher scoring defenseman and pretty equal on the forward. Hanifin is likely a better defender then Hamilton and I think the forward exchange is a wash..... at least in the beginning. Looking at Carolina’s forward group I don’t see where Ferland fits in the top 6.

[CaptainCrunch]

I really liked Ferland, I thought that he could be like a pocket Probert, he was tough, he had some skill, he also had a legitimate kill shot.


But at the same time, last year, I didn't see it enough from him last year or even the year before and that concerned me. I was also concerned that he would either not resign or want $5 million bucks a year as a UFA and with him always seeming to be dealing with nagging injuries I'm not sure that it would be a wise move to resign him.


This trade allows the Flames to reset the clock and bring a younger guy into the top 6 with a different skill set. Lindholm though isn't a soft player, he's hard on the puck, works hard and well below the blue pant, he's not afraid to go the net, and he's pretty good without the puck.



I'm absolutely fine with this movie, I guess I didn't value Ferland as much as a lot of people here do, and that's fair. I'm not saying he's not a good player, or a valuable piece, but the question is, is he going to be the guy going forward?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You can count the number of players that had the number of goals and hits Ferland had last season on one hand. He is a rare player.

I don't understand how this forum can be so receptive to the idea of signing somebody like Reaves but act like Ferland wasn't a physical asset to this team.

Ferland was an important player, and I don't think anyone is dismissing his abilities.

The problem is, he's 1 year away from UFA. He has concussion issues. He hasn't played like Ferland in a while. He is streaky in a bad way. All of those combine together to make him an expendable asset. If he repeated his performance this upcoming season, he'd probably get 3.5-4 million on the open market. He isn't worth that. Anything more than 2.25 frankly is nuts for what he brings, but some team would sign him to something that starts with a 3.

So you've basically got a 1 year asset. In exchange for that one year, the Flames are getting 5-6 years or more of a Mikael Backlund type two way player who has further upside potentially. To me that's a pretty good deal, especially considering the fact that Hanifin in a lot of ways is already equal to Hamilton and is better in some areas (Not taking lazy stick infractions repeatedly).

If you remove the personal attachment to the players as people, this deal is a great one in terms of value going to the Flames. They get an additional 3-4 years out of their young defender and an overall upgrade up front, and shed a good # of years off the ages of both players.

Adding Reaves also makes sense due to the fact that Ferland was a good player for adding that toughness and him leaving creates a hole in that regard. Replacing that aspect is now a need, and having the ability to get Reaves would help replace that aspect.

[Royle9]

Everyone fell in love with 2015 Ferland from his series play against Vancouver including myself.

In retrospect we all should have known that there was no way he would be able to keep playing like that as it was borderline reckless (on his own body) which he paid for during the 2nd series against the Ducks where he ended up being hurt.

Coupled with the concussion issues, sadly the "effective" Ferland will be a thing of the past. He's still a solid player, but the days of Ferland running around throwing the body constantly and fighting 3-4 times a year I think are over. We saw this during the 2nd half of last season, and its no coincidence his points dissipated as a result. Its what made him effective, he has a great shot when hes feeling it however given the UFA status and contract negotiations to come I feel the trade was a stereotypical "sell high" move that made sense.

I would have loved to keep the guy and use him on the 2nd/3rd line but it was time to move on based on the pieces in play.

Wish all the best to him, but I'm not very optimistic he hits 20g again or goes back to being the ruthless, aggressive 2015 Ferland.

[Robbob]

I like what Ferland brings to the team. That being said I think that playing with the top line would push his salary expectations to a level where it would be risky. Probably to the point where you would probably have to walk away as there would probably wouldn't be getting the right value. This season in Carolina will be the proof in the pudding to determine where he stands.

[CaptainCrunch]

With the Reeves thing if they do sign him, this trade does work better for me. Frankly I really don't want my top 6ers throwing knuckles. I want them to focus on their offense and 200 foot game. We get Lindholm who I think we can get that from. Then Reeves takes his tough guy act between the 4th line and the press box when not needed.


I don't want to see a lot of the Flames Flyby stuff that we saw last year when we needed some meanness in the lineup.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I really liked Ferland, I thought that he could be like a pocket Probert, he was tough, he had some skill, he also had a legitimate kill shot.


But at the same time, last year, I didn't see it enough from him last year or even the year before and that concerned me. I was also concerned that he would either not resign or want $5 million bucks a year as a UFA and with him always seeming to be dealing with nagging injuries I'm not sure that it would be a wise move to resign him.


This trade allows the Flames to reset the clock and bring a younger guy into the top 6 with a different skill set. Lindholm though isn't a soft player, he's hard on the puck, works hard and well below the blue pant, he's not afraid to go the net, and he's pretty good without the puck.



I'm absolutely fine with this movie, I guess I didn't value Ferland as much as a lot of people here do, and that's fair. I'm not saying he's not a good player, or a valuable piece, but the question is, is he going to be the guy going forward?

I thought his role changed after he had that initial concussion, shortly after he tried to get physical and the re-injured himself. I wonder if this is why we hardly saw the punishing, physical Ferland. I remember one fight where he seemed upset that that he was being drawn into a fight and then was injured again.