Israel declares war on Hamas

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are assuming Hamas is a rational actor. They are not. They will not give up, even if every Gazan civilian is killed. Does that then make it OK for Israel to do that?

Yes. If Japanese did not surrender, USA would have bombed the islands into oblivion.

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

The IDF has always been a gang.

It was getting incredibly difficult to take Pointman seriously as a Russian information minister in Ukraine thread, and he's tettering on that in this thread.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Yes. If Japanese did not surrender, USA would have bombed the islands into oblivion.

Then I argue based on your take that every civilian can be killed, that you are okay with the campaign of genocide that Israel is committing which is shocking given their history.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

The IDF has always been a gang.

It was getting incredibly difficult to take Pointman seriously as a Russian information minister in Ukraine thread, and he's tettering on that in this thread.

Yes, he is the ultimate hypeman - how do we get him Canadian citizenship? We need more hypeman willing to turn blind eyes to questionable government and foreign policy. Maybe Danielle can make this happen.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

The IDF has always been a gang.

It was getting incredibly difficult to take Pointman seriously as a Russian information minister in Ukraine thread, and he's tettering on that in this thread.

What are you talking about? He criticized Putin and fled the country with his family.

Regarding Israel, I think what you said is completely untrue, unfair and uncalled for. He has an opinion and he's been sharing it rationally without any name calling or personal insults. His view is pro-Israel but has also called out Israel for bad actions, like the Settlements.

The IDF is an army. If they did act like a gang Gaza and the West Bank would have been parking lots decades ago.

I say if anyone was "tettering" on anything, it's you.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

What are you talking about? He criticized Putin and fled the country with his family.

Regarding Israel, I think what you said is completely untrue, unfair and uncalled for. He has an opinion and he's been sharing it rationally without any name calling or personal insults. His view is pro-Israel but has also called out Israel for bad actions, like the Settlements.

The IDF is an army. If they did act like a gang Gaza and the West Bank would have been parking lots decades ago.

I say if anyone was "tettering" on anything, it's you.

You should read some of the earlier posts in the Russian thread, I do not believe this to be true. It was only when things started heating up that I noticed a change in how he was posting anyway. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy hearing his takes - its rare you get information directly from people impacted by these events. He has certainly posted respectfully and I have learned a great deal from his posts.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Leondros

You should read some of the earlier posts in the Russian thread, I do not believe this to be true. It was only when things started heating up that I noticed a change in how he was posting anyway. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy hearing his takes - its rare you get information directly from people impacted by these events. He has certainly posted respectfully and I have learned a great deal from his posts.

I read them too and from what I recall what he was sharing was the average Russian perspective but clarified that it wasn't his perspective.

[CliffFletcher]

Is Israel at war with Gaza?

Is bombing cities where enemy forces are operating a war crime?

How much is Israel currently restraining its firepower, and how much should they restrain their firepower while pursuing their aim of removing the threat of Hamas?

It’s difficult to come up with any principled moral calculus of what’s happening in Gaza without considering those questions.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Is Israel at war with Gaza? Yes

Is bombing cities where enemy forces are operating a war crime? Doesn't really matter at this point, they are doing it. As Corsi pointed out "crime" doesn't even really matter in this context given Israel is not a party to a lot of the International laws

How much is Israel currently restraining its firepower, and how much should they restrain their firepower while pursuing their aim of removing the threat of Hamas? Well, they could nuke them, so they are restraining their firepower. This is however not only a question of firepower or munitions. Its also a question of starving out the general population and not letting aid into Gaza.

It’s difficult to come up with any principled moral calculus of what’s happening in Gaza without considering those questions.

See above

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

What are you talking about? He criticized Putin and fled the country with his family.

Regarding Israel, I think what you said is completely untrue, unfair and uncalled for. He has an opinion and he's been sharing it rationally without any name calling or personal insults. His view is pro-Israel but has also called out Israel for bad actions, like the Settlements.

The IDF is an army. If they did act like a gang Gaza and the West Bank would have been parking lots decades ago.

I say if anyone was "tettering" on anything, it's you.

A lot of his posts are shrouded in purposeful misinformation, misdirection, and manipulation, if we’re keeping score.

But it’s good he hasn’t called anyone a name.

And I would argue that the position that there is no amount of Palestinian civilian deaths that is “too many” is not a rational position. Far from it.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Then I argue based on your take that every civilian can be killed, that you are okay with the campaign of genocide that Israel is committing which is shocking given their history.

Then every war in mankind history is genocide. Name at least one war when an army stopped fighting because opponent had lost too many of their civilians.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Leondros

You should read some of the earlier posts in the Russian thread, I do not believe this to be true. It was only when things started heating up that I noticed a change in how he was posting anyway. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy hearing his takes - its rare you get information directly from people impacted by these events. He has certainly posted respectfully and I have learned a great deal from his posts.

I was against the Ukrainian war from the start and also was against 2014 Crimea annexation.

[undercoverbrother]

95 pages and super close to cracking this nut.

We will soon know who the bad guy is and a solution to avoid these types of situations gain.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

The IDF has always been a gang.

It was getting incredibly difficult to take Pointman seriously as a Russian information minister in Ukraine thread, and he's tettering on that in this thread.

You do understand, that calling Hamas "a gang" was not meant to be derogatory, but rather regarding their legal status. It was in the context of "war crimes" and generally war rules/laws. IDF is a regular army. It is supposed to fight other nations regular armies by a set of rules/laws. This war is different though because IDF is fighting criminals who are not fighting by any rules. It's like a boxer being jumped on by a robber on a dark street, and you demand that he still needs to adhere to the rules of boxing.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

A lot of his posts are shrouded in purposeful misinformation, misdirection, and manipulation, if we’re keeping score.

But it’s good he hasn’t called anyone a name.

And I would argue that the position that there is no amount of Palestinian civilian deaths that is “too many” is not a rational position. Far from it.

The amount of Palestinian casualties that are ‘acceptable’ is an incredibly difficult question to answer. From Israel’s perspective, they might just think they are going to accomplish their goal of eliminating Hamas (or they surrender) no matter what the casualties are.

If Hamas believes that there is a limit, they will have the human shields out in full force, trying to get to that number sooner, to save their own forces. I guess even if Hamas doesn’t think there is a limit, but there are lots of civilian lives lost, maybe there is increased outside pressure on Israel to call a cease fire.

Fighting a terrorist group just is not fair, when they don’t value life over death the way you do.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Well, they could nuke them, so they are restraining their firepower. This is however not only a question of firepower or munitions. Its also a question of starving out the general population and not letting aid into Gaza.

Their aim with those measures could be to punish the population of Gaza as revenge for the Oct 7 attacks. Or Israel is trying to compel civilians in Gaza to leave in order to make the ground invasion less costly for both the IDF and for civilians. Probably both motivations are at play.

The diplomatic wrangling behind the scenes over opening Rafah and admitting Palestinian refugees into Egypt is intense. Israel wants as many Palestinians as possible to vacate Gaza, while Egypt very much does not want to import a radicalized refugee population into the country. Presumably, the U.S. is trying to broker a deal.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Yes, he is the ultimate hypeman - how do we get him Canadian citizenship? We need more hypeman willing to turn blind eyes to questionable government and foreign policy. Maybe Danielle can make this happen.

I don't recall me ever asking anyone to get me Canadian citizenship. But if someone suggested that, I appreciate it. I don't see how posting on Calgary Flames message board about wars on the other side of the world could amount to seeking hype. There are places where those wars would be at least main topics.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

95 pages and super close to cracking this nut.

We will soon know who the bad guy is and a solution to avoid these types of situations gain.

Personally, I've found this thread beneficial to understand some nuances and history of the conflict I previously wasn't aware of. Beyond some emotional outbursts, there has been some very useful and powerful arguments from both sides.

You know what's really not helpful? Adding a comment that others shouldn't comment on the conflict. I think everyone recognizes we aren't bringing peace to the Middle-East. Similarly, none of us are fixing the Flames defensive coverages, inflation, or Dion's habit of re-posting Funny pictures. It's a message board. If the criteria is we shouldn't discuss it if we can't fix it then we shouldn't be discussing almost anything.

[Pointman]

Full blockade and not letting aid in is a leverage to force the release of hostages. This move is like taking the whole population of Gaza as hostages and exchanging them for those hostages that Hamas took.

[Pointman]

An army vs army war is when both sides are wearing uniforms, have distinctly separated war infrastructure and both sides are making effort to prevent loses of civilians, at least their own civilians. What is happening in Gaza is not that. Hamas is not a regular army and it doesn't fight like one, at all. It's more like a dogfight with no rules.