The Legend of Sam Bennett

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Anytime you can get a 2nd/3rd line winger out of a 6th round pick, it's a homerun: Mangiapane.

Gaudreau was a 4th round pick and is an elite player in the NHL. That's a win.

Tkachuk became an impact player in his first year. That's a win.

Andersson, a 2nd round pick, has seamlessly moved into a top 4 role. That's a win.

Ferland was drafted in the 5th round and became a top line player for a year that we moved in a good value deal. That's a win.

Rittich developed into a 1B goalie that had an all-star appearance. He was an undrafted European free agent. That's a win.



Now, that being said. I also think Kylington has been mishandled the same way Bennett has. We shall see how that turns out long term.

I'd say that it's about a 75% success ratio compared to expectations with players in the system. I think it could be a lot better, but I also don't believe the Flames are horrible at development either.

is this the Flames as an organization we are talking about or Treliving? What's the sample size...60-70 picks we are talking about?

Feaster was actually the GM at the time of Gaudreau's selection.

the Flames drafting and development have been poor the last 20 years.

That's why they have not made the playoffs, what, three years? And have advanced past round one once?

You can't be good at drafting talent and still be a middling franchise like the Flames have been for decades.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by AC

If only Calgary was more enticing to a free agent than Florida.

or offered more than a 1 year 1.7 million dollar contract

[AC]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

or offered more than a 1 year 1.7 million dollar contract

Maybe, I wonder how much more Calgary would have had to offer.

He turned down more money from Nashville I believe because he was set on Florida because of the opportunity and familiarity with Quenneville. Pretty safe to say his decision to choose Florida is going to pay off given his great year.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

75% success rate? Only because of who you chose to include. They have had draft picks other than the players you mentioned.

The team is what it is. Bennett failing here is not some crazy exception.

Expectations matter.

I'm struggling to think of many draft picks who disappointed in recent years. Most guys either meet expectations or exceed them. Remember, most draft picks don't turn in to NHLers outside the 1st round. The only big one in the 1st round who failed was Jankowski, and even he was only a minor disappointment considering the reach that he was at the time.

Hell, I didn't even include Adam Fox even though I could have.

If you really have a problem with where the Flames are now, blame the dearth of quality picks in years before 2019 where Treliving spent like a drunken sailor. You cannot expect 5th round picks to routinely turn into NHLers.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

is this the Flames as an organization we are talking about or Treliving? What's the sample size...60-70 picks we are talking about?

Feaster was actually the GM at the time of Gaudreau's selection.

the Flames drafting and development have been poor the last 20 years.

That's why they have not made the playoffs, what, three years? And have advanced past round one once?

You can't be good at drafting talent and still be a middling franchise like the Flames have been for decades.

Agreed, but you cannot go back 20 years to give a fair assessment. I'm going back to about 2012 or so, just before Treliving came on. This is about assessing development patterns of the current regime.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by AC

Maybe, I wonder how much more Calgary would have had to offer.

He turned down more money from Nashville I believe because he was set on Florida because of the opportunity and familiarity with Quenneville. Pretty safe to say his decision to choose Florida is going to pay off given his great year.

Never heard about Nashville, but timeline doesn't really make a lot of sense for that - UFA opened Oct 9 and Duclair didn't sign until December 19th...sitting around for 2 months for a Florida offer doesn't make much sense to me at least.

[AC]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Never heard about Nashville, but timeline doesn't really make a lot of sense for that - UFA opened Oct 9 and Duclair didn't sign until December 19th...sitting around for 2 months for a Florida offer doesn't make much sense to me at least.

He acted as his own agent remember, so he took time listening to all offers.

He confirmed Nashville when Friedman not so subtly asked directly. He had a lot of interested teams but took the best opportunity knowing that it could set him up for a big contract this summer.

https://podcast.sportsnet.ca/31-thou...thony-duclair/
Duclair said he was seriously considering 4-5 teams, but in a 56 game season it was always 1 or 2 year deals being offered, and he wasn't interested in the money as much as a good fit. He was familiar with Zito from CBJ, and Quenneville in CHI.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ok how about 3?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOmEpA2S9iM&t=849s

I’m sure there’s more, but these are all I could find. So If someone else can find some, by all means. The main point though is Gulutzan did try it out, so I think the “he didn’t play him with Tkachuk” narrative can stop.

Three games isn't trying it, three games is just line juggling.

Ten to twenty games is 'trying it'

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Agreed, but you cannot go back 20 years to give a fair assessment. I'm going back to about 2012 or so, just before Treliving came on. This is about assessing development patterns of the current regime.

The amateur scouts have drafted well, but I'm not convinced the organization has developed the players all that well.

Why has Gaudreau never been asked to kill a penalty?
Why has Tkachuk or Monahan never improved their skating?
Why has Oliver Kylington never been put on either side of special teams?
Why hasn't Dillon Dube been utilized as a center?
Why hasn't Andrew Mangiapane been used as a triggerman on the top PP unit?
Why wasn't Mark Jankowski tried as a winger when he had so many tantalizing tools and yet struggled with the center position?
Why wasn't Marcus Granlund tried as a winger?

Let's face it, the team has drafted a lot of talent and failed to allow most of it to hit its ceiling.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Agreed, but you cannot go back 20 years to give a fair assessment. I'm going back to about 2012 or so, just before Treliving came on. This is about assessing development patterns of the current regime.

Remove Ferland as he was also Feaster
Tkachuk? at 6 who was a kid that everyone had as top 5
Monahan? at 6 Calgary was picking whoever Carolina didn't draft.

so who do they have?

Dube, Mangi, Andersson, Valimaki and Rittich? and Kylington who never seems to play...

Edit: Fox is probably the best pick they made based on pick value and how he is playing right now

https://flamesnation.ca/2020/05/04/b...ng-nhl-drafts/

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Expectations matter.

I'm struggling to think of many draft picks who disappointed in recent years. Most guys either meet expectations or exceed them. Remember, most draft picks don't turn in to NHLers outside the 1st round. The only big one in the 1st round who failed was Jankowski, and even he was only a minor disappointment considering the reach that he was at the time.

Hell, I didn't even include Adam Fox even though I could have.

If you really have a problem with where the Flames are now, blame the dearth of quality picks in years before 2019 where Treliving spent like a drunken sailor. You cannot expect 5th round picks to routinely turn into NHLers.

Of course they’ve traded away too many picks. But in looking at drafting and development you can’t only look at the picks that worked out. You went all the way back to the Gaudreau draft to find players that made it but there are plenty of first, second and third rounders in there that didn’t. You don’t need me to list them.

Anyway i’m not really sure where this is going. My point is that their success rate is nothing close to 75% and they really need to understand what went wrong here with Bennett.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Can we amend that to

"Didn't play him with Tkachuk and a competent RW who isn't a leadfooted possession black hole"

Ya know, like:

Tkachuk-Bennett-Versteeg
Tkachuk-Bennett-Frolik
Tkachuk-Bennett-Ferland

Instead, Versteeg-Bennett-Brouwer was Gulutzan's answer... as Gulutzan's "player pair" was Bennett-Brouwer and rookie Tkachuk was the third guy, a rookie still trying to convince the team to burn an ELC year on him.

Right, but you also have to realize that Troy Brouwer was the Flames’ prized free agent. The guy had a few 20 goal seasons and a really strong playoff performance the previous season. It’s not like Gulutzan threw league minimum junk with the pair. It was a more then fair attempt.

Obviously a more skilled driver in play would’ve been the ideal choice. But like I said earlier, Treliving wouldn’t know a good right winger if it bit him in the ass. Edge and competitiveness is what Treliving wanted and that’s what he got. Had he went with speed and skill, maybe Bennett that line would’ve has more success, but c’est la vie I guess.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Expectations matter.

I'm struggling to think of many draft picks who disappointed in recent years. Most guys either meet expectations or exceed them. Remember, most draft picks don't turn in to NHLers outside the 1st round. The only big one in the 1st round who failed was Jankowski, and even he was only a minor disappointment considering the reach that he was at the time.

Hell, I didn't even include Adam Fox even though I could have.

If you really have a problem with where the Flames are now, blame the dearth of quality picks in years before 2019 where Treliving spent like a drunken sailor. You cannot expect 5th round picks to routinely turn into NHLers.

This is a good point' However it seems the Flames missed a gem in Bennett. He is getting opportunities in Florida that he never got on the Flames, That is not on Bennett, that is on the Flames. They should have played him more, gave him more 3 on 3, more pp time and let him kill penalties. If anything they should have focused on getting him to use the skills he was drafted for. Coach Q knows what he is doing, he has coached stars in Toews and Kane. You have to play them.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Yes, 3 to 4 games is plenty. Heck, all I needed was 2 exhibition games to realize James Neal was going to be a failure here, or a couple rookie tournament games to see how good Mangiapane was going to be or 1 period to know Gaudreau was going to be a ppg player. 1 game still contains 20+ shifts and I think a lot can be gleaned off even just 1 game. It’s actually funny, that third link I provided is the exact game I watched after the Chris Tanev signing to see how good he was.

So if I can tell off 1 game or 2, imagine what an NHL coach or an NHL scout can learn.

Not when Bennett and Tkachuk were getting 11 minutes a game, that is more like 16-18 shifts. I suspect in recent history, Sam got the least amount of time with legit top line forwards of any top 5 pick between 2012-2017 in his first 3 NHL years

Less than Galchenyuk, less than Yakupov, less than Lindholm and Drouin. Less than Barkov who looked fairly pedestrian in his first 2 years. Less than Reinhart,
Less than Marner. Probably about the same as Strome got in Arizona. Less than Puljaarvi and Dubois.

Point is, most organizations actually try to develop a guy who is picked that high. There is generally a reason they are picked that high. It is rare to throw up your hands after 3 games and say you tried. Only special organizations like Calgary and Arizona seem to do that.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The amateur scouts have drafted well, but I'm not convinced the organization has developed the players all that well.

Why has Gaudreau never been asked to kill a penalty?
Why has Tkachuk or Monahan never improved their skating?
Why has Oliver Kylington never been put on either side of special teams?
Why hasn't Dillon Dube been utilized as a center?
Why hasn't Andrew Mangiapane been used as a triggerman on the top PP unit?
Why wasn't Mark Jankowski tried as a winger when he had so many tantalizing tools and yet struggled with the center position?
Why wasn't Marcus Granlund tried as a winger?

Let's face it, the team has drafted a lot of talent and failed to allow most of it to hit its ceiling.

An internal issue? Need to look at those in charge of player development and find ways to maximize those assists.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

My point is that the lines they went with won them nothing.

This team defaulted to the lines they did and won nothing. Why did they keep trying? Why didn’t they try and develop better lines?

Stupid short term thinking that didn’t help them win in the short term or the long term.

Well, if you’re in Gulutzan’s position and your sole objective is to make the playoffs or you’re fired, you kind of don’t have the option to “try” things out. You go with what works and at the time, Tkachuk-Backlund and Gaudreau-Monahan worked. I don’t blame Gulutzan for sticking with those pairs because it ended up getting them to the dance in the end.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Three games isn't trying it, three games is just line juggling.

Ten to twenty games is 'trying it'

That’s not true, you don’t need 20 games to figure out what works and what doesn’t. 20 games of “not working” could actually tank your season as evidenced by this season. 3M line worked right away, Lindholm worked right away with 13 & 23. Hell, look at Tkachuk-Lindholm-Gaudreau, they haven’t had a bad game yet. Coaches and teams don’t have 20 games to try things out, it’s a cut throat league and fans want wins.

Plus, those guys also had practice and line rushes too, so it’s not just “3” games. It’s more like 50-60 shifts, plus hours of line rushes and etc.

[Roof-Daddy]

I really wish I had it in me to flush my fandom down the toilet.

I'm so sick of this bull##### crappy franchise and their constant failure/mediocrity, but for some reason I can't just walk away.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Right, but you also have to realize that Troy Brouwer was the Flames’ prized free agent. The guy had a few 20 goal seasons and a really strong playoff performance the previous season. It’s not like Gulutzan threw league minimum junk with the pair. It was a more then fair attempt.

Obviously a more skilled driver in play would’ve been the ideal choice. But like I said earlier, Treliving wouldn’t know a good right winger if it bit him in the ass. Edge and competitiveness is what Treliving wanted and that’s what he got. Had he went with speed and skill, maybe Bennett that line would’ve has more success, but c’est la vie I guess.

Looking a bit like Treliving, or the scouts misread what Bennett needs were, cooked him on the 3rd line maybe expecting him to emerge the way you might develop an average, emerging everyday player?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

That’s not true, you don’t need 20 games to figure out what works and what doesn’t. 20 games of “not working” could actually tank your season as evidenced by this season. 3M line worked right away, Lindholm worked right away with 13 & 23. Hell, look at Tkachuk-Lindholm-Gaudreau, they haven’t had a bad game yet. Coaches and teams don’t have 20 games to try things out, it’s a cut throat league and fans want wins.

Plus, those guys also had practice and line rushes too, so it’s not just “3” games. It’s more like 50-60 shifts, plus hours of line rushes and etc.

This is what sets the Flames apart from other organizations. Other organizations with a top 4 draft pick would give that player a season or two with top players on the team before being able to make a call. The Flames can do it after 3 games.